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Magics relation to cheating at cards You are now viewing the Magics relation to cheating at cards thread.
  1. #51 July 23rd, 2013
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    Alex,

    The problem with your claim is that several names immediately spring to mind that are still alive that refute it. Just because you aren't familiar with them or can list them yourself doesn't mean they don't exist.

    Here's a few that are no longer with us:

    Willis Kinney
    Francis Carlyle
    Floyd Moss
    Tony Giorgio
    Paul Chosse

    All of these men cheated at cards on many occasions and were also all excellent and accomplished magicians, even if they weren't all professional magicians (although Giorgio and Carlyle certainly were).

    I could list just as many names today that are considered excellent magicians (pro or am) and that have cheated at cards for serious money on more than one occasion. Some of these names you would recognize, some you wouldn't.

    But regardless, your theory that you can't do both is blown out of the water by the existence of people that have done both!

    Jason

    PS: Erdnase was almost certainly NOT a cheater or a magician. He may have cheated once or twice in his life and he clearly had done a card trick or two, but his language is exclusionary of both groups and there are lots of reasons to believe he didn't belong to either group in a serious way.

  2. #52 July 23rd, 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEngland View Post
    PS: Erdnase was almost certainly NOT a cheater or a magician. He may have cheated once or twice in his life and he clearly had done a card trick or two, but his language is exclusionary of both groups and there are lots of reasons to believe he didn't belong to either group in a serious way.
    Cool. That's the theory I've been coming round to recently, so glad I've got authoritative support for my thinking! I think it's hard to get away from the idea that Erdnase was basically an enthusiastic sleight-of-hand hobbyist who hung around in the right places in Chicago to meet people like John Philip Quinn, August Roterberg and John Mushmouth Johnson, but didn't rely on magic or cheating to make a living.

  3. #53 July 23rd, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEngland View Post
    Alex,

    The problem with your claim is that several names immediately spring to mind that are still alive that refute it. Just because you aren't familiar with them or can list them yourself doesn't mean they don't exist.

    Here's a few that are no longer with us:

    Willis Kinney
    Francis Carlyle
    Floyd Moss
    Tony Giorgio
    Paul Chosse

    All of these men cheated at cards on many occasions and were also all excellent and accomplished magicians, even if they weren't all professional magicians (although Giorgio and Carlyle certainly were).

    I could list just as many names today that are considered excellent magicians (pro or am) and that have cheated at cards for serious money on more than one occasion. Some of these names you would recognize, some you wouldn't.

    But regardless, your theory that you can't do both is blown out of the water by the existence of people that have done both!

    Jason

    PS: Erdnase was almost certainly NOT a cheater or a magician. He may have cheated once or twice in his life and he clearly had done a card trick or two, but his language is exclusionary of both groups and there are lots of reasons to believe he didn't belong to either group in a serious way.
    Thanks for explaining. Literature on this topic is very difficult to find or it feels like it very well hidden. I will definitely look into names you mention. Floyd Moss "Card Cheats – How They Operate" one that i was looking for for year or so now with no success.

  4. #54 July 23rd, 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Art View Post
    Yes i do. You brought to the table the names of Daniel Madison and S W Erdnase. I dont think Madison was a good card cheat. Card cheat yes, but not good otherwise he would not got caught. But even now i dont think he calls himself a magician. Deception artist i think it is. No one 100% knows who S W Erdnase was. But he definitely got lots of inside about card cheating, where his card magic section feels to me a bit out of place.

    I trying to explain myself to my best knowlage. If you are not happy with the way i do it, there are hundred and one way to say it nice, instead of being arrogant.

    Can you please point me where i used myself as an example.

    If you treat other peoples opinion as bull*** expect same back. I might be wrong but you have not make a single point but only bashed mine.

    You being a beginer yourself. Your knowlage greater then mine. So is your arrogance.

    I think you knew what i meant about cups and balls.
    Madison got caught when he was 17, he got started at 15, possibly a bit foolish to play in an underground game but if you watch any recent videos by him i recommend DEAL or GREEN, you would possibly have a bit more knowledge on his skill level.
    Expert at the card table originally wasnt going to have any card magic at all but he put a few in just to gain the business of magicians as well as cheats so for all we know he couldve been as much of a magician as he was cheat, but thats very unlikely.

    The moment you cheat for the sake of beauty is the moment you are an artist-David Cockney
  5. #55 July 23rd, 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Art View Post
    neither did you.
    The burden of proof is not on me. You made the original claim, which is in dispute, so it is your responsibility to prove your point against criticism. That's how debate works. If I had made a claim first and you disputed it, I would have already type an essay explaining myself. That would be my obligation. But again, the claim in question is yours so in this case you have the burden of proof.

    No the skill but the approach.
    Same difference. How one acts is part of the skill set.

    it does not cost much to be nice.
    This is one of those cases where a firm hand is called for.

    Trying to shot two birds with same gun won`t work.
    What if I have 2 bullets?

    I am not familiar with you repertoire. What and from where you pulling thing none of mine business.
    Nice dodge. The point was that you shouldn't assume everyone else is as inexperienced as you are.

    Try to be nicer and i might think about it.
    You're not in a position to negotiate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Art View Post
    I not intrested in magical presentation, and other show off business. All i am interested is a technique.
    This answers a lot of my questions right here.

    That is not dead, which can eternal lie
    And with strange eons, even death may die

    Witching Hour Productions
    The Pitt and the Pendulum
  6. #56 July 23rd, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.t View Post
    Expert at the card table originally wasnt going to have any card magic at all but he put a few in just to gain the business of magicians as well as cheats so for all we know he couldve been as much of a magician as he was cheat, but thats very unlikely.
    There isn't a shred of evidence for the claim that the book originally wasn't going to have any card magic at all. We know absolutely nothing of the author's early intentions.

    There is also zero evidence that he was ever a cheater (or a magician for that matter). He clearly knew something about both worlds, but whether he ever participated in either is not something we have any real evidence for.

    Jason

  7. #57 July 23rd, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.t View Post
    Madison got caught when he was 17, he got started at 15, possibly a bit foolish to play in an underground game but if you watch any recent videos by him i recommend DEAL or GREEN, you would possibly have a bit more knowledge on his skill level.
    Expert at the card table originally wasnt going to have any card magic at all but he put a few in just to gain the business of magicians as well as cheats so for all we know he couldve been as much of a magician as he was cheat, but thats very unlikely.
    Madison moves look too theatrical. They look too fishy, though you dont see anything but it gives you reason for suspect. Also his advice on dealing second, in one of his Revelations, not to worry about size of the brief, just to cover it with a tilt, seems odd to me. He didn`t fool Penn and Teller with his bottoms. I would personally get Jeff Lianza DVD over Madison one. At list Jeffs moves looks open and natural.

  8. #58 July 23rd, 2013
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    Jason, i know it out of the topic, your avatar states "card mechanic", do you consider yourself a magician or "card mechanic"?

  9. #59 July 23rd, 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Art View Post
    Madison moves look too theatrical. They look too fishy, though you dont see anything but it gives you reason for suspect.
    Well now, this begs a question. Your assertion is that Daniel is too flashy and this would come across suspect at the card table. This implies that you understand that cheating at the card table requires subtlety. You know this. And I know this. In fact, I would guess that any schmuck with two brain cells to rub together could figure this out. So the question then is, why do you not believe Daniel would have thought of this?

    He didn`t fool Penn and Teller with his bottoms.
    You actually think the ability to fool magicians is a good metric of skill? Dude, fooling magicians requires an entirely different thought process than misdirecting a spectator. And besides that, Penn and Teller are two of the smartest guys in the industry with decades of experience between them. That's why it seems so impressive.

    That is not dead, which can eternal lie
    And with strange eons, even death may die

    Witching Hour Productions
    The Pitt and the Pendulum
  10. #60 July 23rd, 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steerpike View Post
    Well now, this begs a question. Your assertion is that Daniel is too flashy and this would come across suspect at the card table. This implies that you understand that cheating at the card table requires subtlety. You know this. And I know this. In fact, I would guess that any schmuck with two brain cells to rub together could figure this out. So the question then is, why do you not believe Daniel would have thought of this?

    You actually think the ability to fool magicians is a good metric of skill? Dude, fooling magicians requires an entirely different thought process than misdirecting a spectator. And besides that, Penn and Teller are two of the smartest guys in the industry with decades of experience between them. That's why it seems so impressive.
    Can you please point me to some videos of your card work, preferably with shuffles and deals, otherwise you just trolling this part of the forum. For a professional filmmaker it should not be that difficult.

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