They'd look at me like I was crazy.
Point being, why would you judge anything like that? I would never judge magic by the 95% of the bad/boring magic that I see. There's some amazing talent out there.
As for bad theater. 99% of them aren't aimed for that purpose. However, it doesn't mean it's impossible or non existent. I hope you as an entertainer can see the potential. If not, let's go see a few Cirque shows.// andrei jikh
vp of production / theory11
I'm not asking you to do a 4 minute uncut cardistry routine. But if you're going to be a critic, then be credible. Otherwise, why should anyone listen to your golden opinion?
I'm all for a challenge. I still don't get what that "challenge" is exactly.
Again I don't think the discussion is too focused on giving advice to improve videos but rather the merits of cardistry and why it's "objectively bad because it doesn't have emotion so I don't like it".// andrei jikh
vp of production / theory11
Again I don't think the discussion is too focused on giving advice to improve videos but rather the merits of cardistry and why it's "objectively bad because it doesn't have emotion so I don't like it".
Really interesting thread going on here. Being a cardist myself, I feel I need to throw in my two ¢'s. I would say that most of the criticisms stated here are valid and reasonable. I tend to agree with most of you that cardistry has become uninspiring, predictable, and plain boring. I can see this in my own flourish videos, yet I really have no desire to resolve the issue. I guess it boils down to the fact that it's not easy or self gratifying to try something outside the box, merely for the purpose of unconventionality.
95% of flourishers are self indulgent when it comes to cardistry. (including myself) We do what we do because we love it. It entertains us and makes us happy. It just so happens that what flourishers find entertaining in their work is not shared by outsiders. So we have all these flourishers who are inspired by their own work and completely unphased by the work produced around them. While this is a good thing for the flourishers themselves, it's detrimental to the artform.
What needs to change? I'm not really sure. But cardistry and cardistry media needs to evolve into something that can be enjoyed by outsiders or it's going to die out.
- #66// andrei jikh
vp of production / theory11
Well Andrei you did quote a majority of my words there so pardon me if I thought the elephant was mine. You know I'm direct Sir.
In every video I've ever critiqued I've never spoken about the technical skill involved. I'm no more qualified to say this spinning card thing was executed correctly than you are to comment on a half axel folly.
But I have made some horrible mistakes in filmin videos for the web and all I want is to make sure people know that the simplist tweaks can really make the difference. I am blunt. Painfully so at times but that's how my best teachers were with me.
The difference between cardistry and skateboarding though is that one of them is still a bit more of a performance art.
Look man I'm willing to take your challenge. I've got a few videos up on YouTube. And you've seen me live at wonderground. If you want to have a go at me please do so. I'd welcome the critique.
I've neve seen a cirq show, I'd love to go on grounds alone that it would be something new.
Maybe this is a fundamental flaw in my programing. I go big or I go home. I'm all in, so I don't understand (easily) someone doing something for anything less than show. My default is that I am talking to others who aspire to e better showman. Maybe that is where I'm missin the train here.
Winner SNC 6/5/2010 "What Magic Means to You?"
Winner SNC 8/22/2010 "Best Dramatic Work" for Theory11 Movie Night
It doesn't matter what appeals to you or what appeals to other manipulators. That's not what we're talking about here. We're discussing the merits of manipulation as a stand-alone spectator-friendly art. The kind of thing that an entire show for laymen can be built upon.
As I've made clear - I know this is perfectly do-able. It does, however, take a lot of work, effort and creativity to pull off.
Magic is inherently "easier" to make entertaining because it is the magic itself that mystifies and entertains. More work must go into making a display of skill entertaining because nothing is hidden - it is the visual aspect alone that must entertain.
Thus, we must color and flavor it. Fill it out. Make it something special.
So let's not get too far off track about manipulation appealing to manipulators - which is a given - and how we perceive it. This is about manipulation being a stand-alone and mainstream art, appealing to the masses.
We can do it, it can be done, but it's work.
P.S. As always, please bear in mind that manipulation is all that I do. I am capable in many forms of magic, but I don't do it. I am a pure manipulator, so this is certainly something that I am passionate about and interested in seeing prosper and succeed.Actor, Business Owner and 9+ year Authority on Card Handling, Manipulation & Flourishing
I think important to keep in mind that as card guys who have been doing this for 5+ / 10+ years, it's not necessarily about the art evolving so much as it is about personal evolution. The art has evolved as much as it needs to for all intensive purpose. There's really no excuse on that front.
Take Michael for example. He makes beautiful videos and has great talent. However, at the longevity and rate of doing these videos, it's easy to understand why it becomes uninspiring. Besides getting a super slow motion or a Panavision film camera with direction from Christopher Nolan, it's tough to push the boundaries on the digital front - so you're left feeling uninspired. As would anyone else, making/watching the same substance for years. The same however, doesn't apply to those who are just starting out. It's that excitement when learning how to edit, getting your camera, creating that new move, sharing it and getting props for it. Remember? Passion is retained in the pursuit of new roads which is why it comes down to you to make it work again. Keep it fresh. Feel uncomfortable. If you're not feeling like a beginner, you're not learning. It's far from dead or dying from my perspective.
If you're bored, find new ways to get inspired. Don't be so afraid to feel embarrassed and drop cards from time to time. Get feedback. Make new friends. Enter contests. Reach out to media outlets to get published. Participate. Whatever works. And if you're not the performing type, forget everything you know and learn new things that make you feel like a beginner all over again. I do that all the time. It really never ends if you still love what you do.// andrei jikh
vp of production / theory11
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[QUOTE=Andrei;403880 The same however, doesn't apply to those who are just starting out.[/QUOTE]
This is what I see as a major cause of the big division of the merits of cardisty as entertainment. Most of the time went someone is posting a video to the general forum and ask what do you think? they are really looking for criticism (especially on their camera work, I think that the post on how to improve their filming is one of the best things to come out of this thread and hopefully will help improve many of the videos but I don't think it is what they are originally asking about. With luck they will realize that it is one of the things they should be asking about though ) they are looking for encouragement. And in a lot of the cases they deserve it for the moves they are showing off.
Compare it to people posting videos of themselves do 'the pass', a move which if done right should be invisible and also a move the people tend to make youtube videos of and often 'headless hands only videos' of. It is extremely common to see very bad Pass videos, in both execution and film technique. I think it is far more common to see skilled execution even in the poorly filmed cardisty videos.
Unfortunately when these videos get posted with the 'what do you think' line it is hard for a lot of people to view on the moves alone. And it is a new person asking an old question.
I discover theory11 because I was watching cardisty videos and was finding them quite entertaining and was looking for more. I'm terrible at moves like that but I appreciate the skill I see. I'd prefer if all the videos I clicked on were filmed as well as Andrei's or Zach's but I know that is not going to always be the case, for many many reasons but I still see the merit in checking out what people are doing.