Impressing Girls (I need help!)

[bobbyhasbun]

The irony is that eostresh and I get mocked and sneered at for providing information based on social science, psychology, and personal experience, but schmucky, defeatist, rude-ass answers like this are considered kosher.

(sigh) Sometimes it's a terrible burden being smarter than everyone else.

HAHAHAHAHAH I was just joking. You really need to chill with the big words and drama.

[fnord]

Severely misguided advice. Money and muscles can get that initial interest, but if you can't follow that up with a personality then you're just as sunk as before, only now you have a suit and an exercise routine.

In life as in magic, getting a "hook" in is an important first step. You can't get secondary interest and without initial interest. We dress a certain way, we act a certain way, we smile and laugh and present a certain way. A sulky, quiet, haphazard performer could be the best magician in the world, they'd fail. Same in dating. Being above 5'8" (trust me, at 5'6" I notice the difference between sneakers and boots), fit, well dressed, and well spoken, is the best way to get to know people you can then show that you're a good guy. If you don't get that first, five second, win, you'll have an uphill battle you'll lose more often than win.

[fnord]

The irony is that eostresh and I get mocked and sneered at for providing information based on social science, psychology, and personal experience, but schmucky, defeatist, rude-ass answers like this are considered kosher.

(sigh) Sometimes it's a terrible burden being smarter than everyone else.

The bigger problem is not with the individuals doing it. The idea of psychology and social sciences in magic has been thoroughly tarnished by that "pick up artist" culture. First, everyone has read "The Game" and the second you produce a pack of cards or levitate a cigarette you're automatically labeled as a sleaze by those who have. Which, after ten years on the market, is as I said almost anyone.

Secondly it's the "new performers" who walk into a magic shop, buy a DVD and gaff set, practice once, ruin the illusion, and wouldn't you know, will ruin it for everyone. A few weeks ago I did a paid closeup gig at a restaurant opening and three tables, independent from each other, started in on telling me about the "weird guy with the fuzzy hat" (everyone wants to be this guy called 'Mystery', no idea why... I didn't understand it when everyone wanted to be Criss Angel, either) who'd done the same and shown them his "strings" (loops) when he failed to levitate something. Irony or Ironies I wasn't using loops, but still the thing was blown.

I don't need to neg or analyze IOIs or whatever else this pop-psych babble suggests. I have no issues finding partners without it, but there seems to be a huge community of people who actually still believe in NLP (any serious psychologist will tell you it's mostly New Age bunk) and follow books by Neill Strauss or Mystery and their illegitimate love child, Tim Ferriss, slavishly while ruining it for the rest of us.

Personally I still think psychology is one of the indispensable pillars of magic but the amateurs with book knowledge kill it. That's why there are such harsh reactions.

[bobbyhasbun]

The bigger problem is not with the individuals doing it. The idea of psychology and social sciences in magic has been thoroughly tarnished by that "pick up artist" culture. First, everyone has read "The Game" and the second you produce a pack of cards or levitate a cigarette you're automatically labeled as a sleaze by those who have. Which, after ten years on the market, is as I said almost anyone.

Secondly it's the "new performers" who walk into a magic shop, buy a DVD and gaff set, practice once, ruin the illusion, and wouldn't you know, will ruin it for everyone. A few weeks ago I did a paid closeup gig at a restaurant opening and three tables, independent from each other, started in on telling me about the "weird guy with the fuzzy hat" (everyone wants to be this guy called 'Mystery', no idea why... I didn't understand it when everyone wanted to be Criss Angel, either) who'd done the same and shown them his "strings" (loops) when he failed to levitate something. Irony or Ironies I wasn't using loops, but still the thing was blown.

I don't need to neg or analyze IOIs or whatever else this pop-psych babble suggests. I have no issues finding partners without it, but there seems to be a huge community of people who actually still believe in NLP (any serious psychologist will tell you it's mostly New Age bunk) and follow books by Neill Strauss or Mystery and their illegitimate love child, Tim Ferriss, slavishly while ruining it for the rest of us.

Personally I still think psychology is one of the indispensable pillars of magic but the amateurs with book knowledge kill it. That's why there are such harsh reactions.

You're forgetting that he's "...smarter than everyone else".

But seriously, you only have 3 posts and the 2 I've read are infinitely more intelligent than someone's 3,000-post, self-proclaimed intelligence.

As for NLP, I'll admit I had my phase (but I was more than proven wrong- good thing it only lasted a short while). I never used it to try to pick up girls, though (that's just creepy).

[ChristopherT]

In life as in magic, getting a "hook" in is an important first step. You can't get secondary interest and without initial interest. We dress a certain way, we act a certain way, we smile and laugh and present a certain way. A sulky, quiet, haphazard performer could be the best magician in the world, they'd fail. Same in dating. Being above 5'8" (trust me, at 5'6" I notice the difference between sneakers and boots), fit, well dressed, and well spoken, is the best way to get to know people you can then show that you're a good guy. If you don't get that first, five second, win, you'll have an uphill battle you'll lose more often than win.

The point I'm trying to make is that the hook doesn't have to be the rubber-stamped corporate image, and in fact many people are turned off by that image because it so frequently comes along with arrogance. Also, people who spend all their time getting fit and working at corporate jobs tend to have nothing to talk about other than lifting weights and working in corporate America.

One of the most charming men I've ever known in my life was a guy that was about 5'7", with a beer gut, balding with a pony tail, usually wore jeans/khakis and a short-sleeved button up shirt, thick glasses, worked at Best Buy and collected toys and other sorts of things. He also was a huge geek/sci-fi enthusiast. Basically, every stereotype that usually works against a guy. But he is f'ing hilarious, and tells stories better than anyone I know. He also has such a wide range of knowledge that he can take part in any conversation and actually contribute. Most of the guys I know that do best with women do not wear suits, do not make tons of money, and do not conform to what society usually terms 'successful.' But they are interesting, funny, considerate, intelligent or a mix thereof.

Now, as a caveat, I do tend to run with an unusual crowd. I seek out artists, musicians and general weirdos. So your mileage may vary.

[eostresh]

Now, as a caveat, I do tend to run with an unusual crowd. I seek out artists, musicians and general weirdos. So your mileage may vary.

That right there is a caveat that completely explains how you missed my original point. I don't mean that to be offensive...just educational. Within a community like you describe having collections of "things" is a conspicuous display of resources. I'm sure he doesn't still "play" with his toys. So the fact that he has them is an indicator that he has the resources to spend on completely unnecessary "fluff"....plumage if you will.

The plumage you adopt is culturally specific. I live in Korea now where "Machismo" doesn't seem to be a big attractor of women. Most of the guys who seem successful with the ladies are pretty "metro." However, I grew up in Wyoming where "machismo," in its various forms, was. In my home town, Laramie, home of some world class rock climbing, so climbers, alpinists, and back country ski bums kind of had a lock on the "check me out ladies," vibe. In Cody, it was the big game hunters(and to a lesser degree Ice Climbers.) And here I don't mean sit in a tree stand or duck blind sipping hot totties all day. These guys hiked and packed 15 to 20 miles in rough country to go bag an Elk. These guys were seriously going for the pre-Pleistocene male vibe. "Unk You woman....me man...me go get MEAT!"

So while I toss out a lot of flippant reductionist jokes about it the truth remains the same. Attract with plumage, (muscles, toys, fancy hair, fancy clothes, whatever fits your subculture) and display high status which means a high status job within your subculture. "No baby...I don't work at the comic book store.....I OWN the comic book store. Gimmie some sugar baby!"

And people can feel free to sneer at me if they like. When you study Sociobiology you get used to it. In the late 90s liberals seemed to think I was a sexist, bigoted, conservative racist for having the audacity to think that we were not all born with a "blank slate." Now conservatives think I am a hippy, stuck up, intelligentsia liberal because I don't believe the world was created 6,000 years ago. So pretty much guys who study the field I have studied get used to being hated by all sides. Oh well....doesn't change the three fundamental rules of life...

Eat....Reproduce.....Don't get EATEN!

[Steerpike]

HAHAHAHAHAH I was just joking. You really need to chill with the big words and drama.

You're either lying or just not very good at telling jokes in text. I'm leaning on the latter.

Also, clearly you haven't seen me around before. If you had said something like, "I meant it as a joke, but I guess it didn't work," I would have apologized for snapping at you. But since you want to be this way, then forget it. I'm not a bad guy, but I don't suffer fools gladly.

Personally I still think psychology is one of the indispensable pillars of magic but the amateurs with book knowledge kill it. That's why there are such harsh reactions.

All you described are fair complaints, but that doesn't mean the knee-jerk reactions are correct. Especially since, in the context of my post, I was lamenting that trying to help will get you sneered at if you have an approach people don't like for one reason or another, but saying something rude or callous to the threadstarter typically never gets remarked upon.

I grow tired of these threads because it always ends with everyone either focusing on me instead of the guy who needs help to tell me that I sound like a rapist or whatever, people who want to be dicks, and people who want to tell the same painfully unfunny jokes (i.e. posting advice dog memes) without actually offering anything of value. I don't think I'm asking for a lot that people stop doing that and just try to help the guys who ask for it.

[Cyril]

ah nothing like a little nostalgia around this time of year at theory11 with threads about girls and them hormones :3

[bobbyhasbun]

You're either lying or just not very good at telling jokes in text. I'm leaning on the latter.

Also, clearly you haven't seen me around before. If you had said something like, "I meant it as a joke, but I guess it didn't work," I would have apologized for snapping at you. But since you want to be this way, then forget it. I'm not a bad guy, but I don't suffer fools gladly.



All you described are fair complaints, but that doesn't mean the knee-jerk reactions are correct. Especially since, in the context of my post, I was lamenting that trying to help will get you sneered at if you have an approach people don't like for one reason or another, but saying something rude or callous to the threadstarter typically never gets remarked upon.

I grow tired of these threads because it always ends with everyone either focusing on me instead of the guy who needs help to tell me that I sound like a rapist or whatever, people who want to be dicks, and people who want to tell the same painfully unfunny jokes (i.e. posting advice dog memes) without actually offering anything of value. I don't think I'm asking for a lot that people stop doing that and just try to help the guys who ask for it.

Forget it? NO! Please apologize

Was that a better joke?

As far as helping him, girls are people. If you can impress people in general with your magic, then what's the difference between that and girls? There is none. And I'm assuming he already does impress people with his magic. IF you want to impress a girl with your magic, do magic for her. It's that simple.

[Steerpike]

As far as helping him, girls are people. If you can impress people in general with your magic, then what's the difference between that and girls? There is none. And I'm assuming he already does impress people with his magic. IF you want to impress a girl with your magic, do magic for her. It's that simple.

Impressing someone with skill is not the same thing as impressing them with personality. Magic is a great icebreaker, but you have to be able to hold a conversation without the magic or it's pointless. If you go in thinking that all you have to do is a card trick and your made, you're going to screw it up because soon the trick is over and you have no idea what to do next.

Don't try to use magic as a substitute for personality.