Double One Hand Card Fan

[aaronkplacke]

I've been working on a version of the double card (or two layer) fan that is executed with one hand from start to finish. I'm running into some huge roadblocks, especially with the action of fanning itself. Have any of you guys seen anyone who has invented or been able to do this??

[treadstone]

I believe Ciappi came up with the concept. You can see him do it here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4o4sPdCKTU

Matt Lang has a version.
youtube.com/watch?v=F4i7y_Vllwg

And there is the Curly Q fan published in one of the AoA books, its like a one-handed LePaul spread, cause 2 spreads to form.

[c3rb3rus]

no Ciappi did Not invent it ... he has stated in the past that it was alegidly published in an old Italian magic book with is supposed to be very hard to find... but before he put it on video i saw a video on MVD of "stanley9" doing that fan ... i've used this fan in the opening of my last video.

can be seen here (DN): http://decknique.net/content/441.html

or here (Youtube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSu1pFkAovs

[treadstone]

no Ciappi did Not invent it ... he has stated in the past that it was alegidly published in an old Italian magic book with is supposed to be very hard to find... but before he put it on video i saw a video on MVD of "stanley9" doing that fan ... i've used this fan in the opening of my last video.


My bad^ I had no idea about the book.

[c3rb3rus]

no problem ... even though the it was mentioned that it was written up in an old italian magic book .. they never said the title of the book or the author. so your guess is as good as mine as to the "True" creator of the move.

[AndyCL]

I've been working on a version of the double card (or two layer) fan that is executed with one hand from start to finish. I'm running into some huge roadblocks, especially with the action of fanning itself. Have any of you guys seen anyone who has invented or been able to do this??

I have come accross a one-handed fan on Jeff McBride's "The Art of Card Manipulation" called the "Curly-Q Move". You basically do a le paul spread in one hand while holding the top of the deck down with your thumb. This will result in the cards springing out from the middle of the deck in a circular shape.

[Vinnie C.]

I also have a version, mine is pretty hard to do though. :(

-Vince

[Narcissus]

Could he maybe be talking about a one-handed Giant Fan? The one that is opened with the "twin fan" technique. That is not a one hand from start to finish thing but it also sounds like this could be a candidate.

[trashmanf]

By definition, a one handed giant fan is not two fans ;) just one big fan.

Also, the one-handed giant fan IS possible with one hand from start to finish, it's just extremely difficult (see Jerry's companion DVDs, on www.flourishman.com, it is in the 2nd volume, "fanning", obviously)

[Narcissus]

I wasn't talking about making twin fans, I was saying to use the finger movements from the technique that Jerry teaches for making twin fans. You know, starting position and the opening technique....as far as doing it with one hand for the weave and all, I don't see that as a technique that alot of people will learn....like you said, because of it's difficulty.

[trashmanf]

Oh I fully agree that less than 1% of flourishers will take the time to become proficient enough to make a perfect one-handed weave... and only a fraction of those would be willing to put in the practice to perform the strip-out (or whatever you call pushing two faro'd halfs through each other) and create a nice fan.

However, just realizing it is possible, is enough for some people to be motivated to do it! So i just wanted to throw that out there.

When you say "jerry's twin fan technique" do you mean the one-handed indices fan technique?

[UnknownEnemyZero]

Who says you need a "perfect one hand weave" we're not asking for faros here. Cut low for the slid out portion of the deck when your doing the one hand weave and it'll be easier to get that nice card-for-card weave, then adjust the weave in preparation for the one-handed giant fan.

Since it's an giant angle fan it looks better backs out, so no need for the whole right-hand indices fan. So the normal twin fans method will work regardless of your handiness.

[Narcissus]

Exactly, yeah, I wasn't talking about the indices fan, just the normal technique.

[pokerface]

just imagine holding one giant fan in each hand.. damn. xD

[Mike_Sedai]

What is the original fan in the JasPas Only video that he starts with one hand and then executes the second fan with his other hand? Whatever it is, it's totally sick. That guy is amazing, especially that vid...

[trashmanf]

probably a carnahan fan? flipback fan? smear fan? lol

unknownenemazero, I was referring to doing a completely one handed giant fan. Yes you need a perfect in the hands weave to make a perfect giant fan.

and they look great faces out (as long as you offset the deck) as well as backs out. no quality-minded flourisher should disregard either.

[Vinnie C.]

What is the original fan in the JasPas Only video that he starts with one hand and then executes the second fan with his other hand? Whatever it is, it's totally sick. That guy is amazing, especially that vid...

Not sure, but the concept of it is similar to a move by Scott called "Osiris".

-Vince

[UnknownEnemyZero]

unknownenemazero, I was referring to doing a completely one handed giant fan. Yes you need a perfect in the hands weave to make a perfect giant fan.

...

Perfect? I don't get it really, sounds like to much work to do a 26-26 perfect card weave to do a perfect one-handed giant fan which you would need to offset one card to hold the fan. What I was referring was doing a ONE-HANDED giant fan using a one-hand riffle shuffle weave technique.

But what's the point of doing 27-25 cards, just cut one portion lower(the part that's going to be the outter tier). Around 31 card on the thumbside and then 21 cards on the finger side and it'll make it easier to form and hold the giant fan.

I don't necessarily think it would be a good idea to adjust it to the standard giant fan formation with all cards parallel and the offset of the weave to show indices. It takes time to get to that formation and it ruins the aspect of the one-handed move if you take too long getting there. Add fanning powder to the aspect and you've got some trouble on your hands.

[trashmanf]

I guess I wasn't clear what you're talking about - when you say one-handed riffle shuffle weave do you mean on the table?

If you were talking about the in-the-hands weave... which I guess you're probably not... Anyhoo, it's not harder at all to slightly offset the halfs, all this indicates to me is that you don't own the Encyclopedia of Playing Card Flourishes (or the companion DVDs) or if you do, then you ignored them.

when you say "sounds like to [sic] much work ... to do a perfect one-handed giant fan" that is EXACTLY what I meant when I said less than 1% of flourishers would be willing to put in the effort. yes, it's hard, different people have different amounts of dedication to this art ;) but if you just stick with it I think it will not be that hard. I have only been flourishing a couple months and I can already do a totally one-handed giant fan, but not perfect yet... but I can definitely see getting there ;) and it doesn't take "too long" as you think it would "ruin the aspect" , Jerry does it in like 3 seconds :)

it's totally cool if it's not your thing though! I just think it's one of the sweetest flourishes out there so I'm going to practice until I can do it perfect, simultaneously, in both hands :D you might rather spend your time learning the Jackson 5 or some cut or something, everyone likes different stuff and that's whats great about XCM ! be original.

[UnknownEnemyZero]

I do own those products they do make a difference in giant fans. How ever, a giant fan is a giant fan, usually in a routine it'd be better to make the normal giant fan offsetted to show indices properly. However stick some angle fans in there backs out and you got a nice fanning riff.

This should be used properly in a routine not just as a single move. So hitting the spectators with a one-handed giant fan AND giant angle fan makes kind of a "double whammy" which helps keep your audiences interested. An example of this would do a routine of nothing but single one-handed cuts and then hit spectators with a cobra cut. They will notice the difference and jump in difficulty and will definitely appreciate it, because your adding an aerial, balance, and multipacket cut all of a sudden. Building up to something like that is a good way to routine.

The other problem is that fanning powder, you should always be manipulating giant fans with some fanning powder in that deck. With weaves their always so much harder with that stuff on there, try a glide with fanning powder and you'll see what I'm talking about. So sometimes you could pull off the perfect offset to form the normal giant fan, but look at how much area you have to push those cards through to get to that position. If you struggle you're in trouble, but then again that depends on the routine itself and deck condition which can be avoided but not always.

I can applaud you for going to put more effort I'm always for that, but sometimes there is no prize in extra effort when AUDIENCES aren't going to reward you for that. That's what it really should come down to. Why learn the horizontal spin cut when you already know the one-handed revolution cut? No one is going to appreciate the differences. So don't take offense of degard when I say, "It's not worth the effort." Because sometimes it's really not worth it. Why learn to do the rosette? It's puny no one appreciates it especially when you can do normal pressure and thumb fans perfectly. Why learn the Carnahan fan when it can be easily confused with the flipback fan and twin indices fans. But maybe that's going to much into theory of manipulation and audience appreciation so that's another story.

[Vinnie C.]

Why learn the Carnahan fan when it can be easily confused with the flipback fan and twin indices fans.

I agree on some of the other points, but this isn't quite correct in my opinion. The starting position and getting-into of the Carnahan varies significantly from the Flipback fan or Indicies fans, thus allowing the execution of the Carnahan to take place from positions or circumstances that the other moves probably wouldn't allow. Also, the twin-fan move using the Carnahan has more impact than the twin-fan move using a Flipback fan instead.

-Vince

[Narcissus]

all this indicates to me is that you don't own the Encyclopedia of Playing Card Flourishes (or the companion DVDs) or if you do, then you ignored them.

Hey Trash..have you ever seen UEZ's fan's??? Or his other stuff???? LOL
Jerry has personally commented on the quality of UEZ's material so that statement was way off.



but sometimes there is no prize in extra effort when AUDIENCES aren't going to reward you for that. That's what it really should come down to. .

That's really the point that alot of people miss (including myself at first) but it's great to set the bar high I guess. That's the difference between our perspective and the audience's...this goes for magic and card whippin'.

Edit: Something else just came to me, training these extremely difficult knuckle busting moves does have it's place, those are the kinds of things you would use in battles and tournaments that were being judged by other XCMer's. We as a community would immediately recognize the difficulty in that move and judge accordingly. So yeah, I guess it comes down to....do you want to perform for fat lazy internet guys that are probably watching your video in their underwear or do you want to perform for live audiences?

[Vinnie C.]

Honestly, who cares if the audience can't tell the difference between two given moves? If you want to learn them both, do it! This art is as much for your enjoyment as it is for the audience's.

-Vince

[trashmanf]

If I could rep you I would Vinnie.

I could honestly care less whether or not an audience member is going to be excited about my move. if I cared about that i would just do a hotshot cut and a card spring.

the thing that attracted me to card manipulation was the extremely high level of technical difficulty. for me, the more challenging it is, the more fun it is. If I can do something easily, I get bored with it and have to move on to something else... this has been the bane of all my hobbies :D

so because I like XCM so much, I have decided to set the bar super-high, who knows, I may *never* attain the level of perfection I'm shooting for, and that would be AWESOME, because then I would always be having fun.

great discussion here :) UEZ, I didn't know you were a BAMFWC, my apologies for assuming you didn't have the EoPCF and all that. I personally disagree even with a lot of stuff Jerry says about what you should and shouldn't do for audiences, because they won't be able to tell the difference. for example, in the descriptions of a lot of moves he says it's okay to just learn them one-handed, because audiences won't care if you can do it ambi-decks-trously. I think if you can only do a move in one hand then you're only half good at it! :D

[UnknownEnemyZero]

Looking at your own self achievement that's something that can go WAY WAY beyond discussion and can get extremely complicated and like I said it's your own bar and standards so if can differ greatly from others but I like to speak generally. HOWEVER, I do stress the importance of audience appreciated moves because it seems the majority of the community still spends the least amount of time on impact moves. Hopefully in a year or two we can see more overhead springs and double armspreads but by then some genius kid is going to come around and set another higher bar juggling 5 playing cards of some crap that'll make me sad....:(

[Vinnie C.]

If you perform for audiences, then of course you should learn audience-pleasing moves, but you should also learn the moves that you like. When you're happy, you give a good performance. :)

Personally, I learn every single move I can get my hands on. :)

-Vince

[Narcissus]

So when can we expect your 5 card juggling routine Vinnie :D

[Vinnie C.]

So when can we expect your 5 card juggling routine Vinnie :D

When I'm good enough at card juggling so as to not mortally wound people when I practice. :)

-Vince