What's new about Digital Dissolve?

[joshua barrett]

i hope one of the big guys can answer this.

ok i watched the dvd and all of that and the problem im having is, i can't see, to figure whats different about DD from the steve deusheck routine C/S transpo or marketed version Ultimate copper/silver

DD is good, but im disaapointed with the reselling of somthing already available

[c3rb3rus]

i though of this as well ... even though im still planning of purchasing this effect i think that some ppl might not understand the difference from this effect or the classic C/S routines already out there .. and i think the main reason for this is the video on the DD page... the video is more of a "Trailer" rather than a "Demo" and there is big difference in those 2 ... the trailer has more cut scenes and shows the reactions etc.... and the demo shows the routine and on occations with minor parts missing as to not reveil the method.... i think we could get a better understanding of this effect if there was a Demo available as well.

[joshua barrett]

no i own digital dissolve. and what im sayign is this exact routine was released by steve, and id like to hear from the theroy11 team if he is aware they duplicated his effect. the handling of the change and the same gaff all the same. they do credit steve so they are aware of its existance. i hardly think the "toss switch" constitutes a re-release as new

[jibjibman]

no i own digital dissolve. and what im sayign is this exact routine was released by steve, and id like to hear from the theroy11 team if he is aware they duplicated his effect. the handling of the change and the same gaff all the same. they do credit steve so they are aware of its existance. i hardly think the "toss switch" constitutes a re-release as new

Maybe because the GIMMICK itself is made by Jamie Schoolcraft, which makes it awesome automatically.

[joshua barrett]

im sorry but that was usless, there is not much difference in this gimmick and the oringinal other then a slick surface. i have another one of higher qualilty. its quite evident the gimmick was rush for quantity the way the teflon is cut. i don;t care who manufactures it. its the same

[bjBueno]

Hi Guys I originally started playing with what is now Digital Dissolve after I acquired the “Gimmick” that the effect uses now.
This crafted gimmick that got me playing with this was created by a Presley Guitar from Texas and predates Steve’s. Presley told me the idea predates him by many years and he mentioned crafting coins of this nature for J.B Bobo. Also Palbearers Review mentions the gaff. I have tried to chase down the history of this gimmick. Presley Guitar mentioned to me that he started creating many coins that were variations of this gaff; the one used is only one idea.

From the routines perspective it was developed by trying to combine Bobo's handling of copper silver transpo and David Roth. After many trials with audiences the method simplified to what is shown today, even thought I still continue to play with many ways of creating this effect.

It has not been my intention to rerelease as I believed this to be something unique and the approach I took on the effect differs. I hope this helps in the discussion. And again sorry if you feel you got something you already knew.

[joshua barrett]

thanks for the reply bj, helps loads

[joshua barrett]

as im not one to let this go easy, im still not convience the handling is different then steve's that appear on his dvd from material form 1985, its been reported to me that he was selling the gaff for the trick as early as 1969.
stright from the undergroud... im not so sure.

sorry to be a heckler but i get tired of re-buying things from tarbells

i don;t think when the gaff was created matter much, the problem lies in the fact the handling is the same

[joshua barrett]

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=163349&forum=3&start=0


i think that says it all. i was mistaken in my initial impression of improved ethics of the operators of this site over others. the sale of this item should be removed if they care about beign a ethical company at all. its up to T11 now to decide if they want to expiot thier customers who don;t know the facts for finanical gain for a product they were not given permission to release. maybe the thought is who needs ethics when you got good marketing.

[HarbringerofDeath7788]

Wow that link you posted makes you really think a bit huh Josh? Makes me wonder about T11's ethical values over marketing strategies a bit. If anything I hope this is all cleared up in the end.

[bjBueno]

Joshua,

Thank you for pulling the facts together. I am sorry that this created such a stir.

To All:

From a routine perspective, DD is completely different, and the effect to the your audience is not even close to C/S Transpo. I am of course not saying I don't like Steve's effect, but DD and C/S are not the same. C/S Transpo is much closer to the marketed effect "Scotch and Soda."

Steve Dusheck is not mentioned in the printed record for creation of the gaff, but regardless, our intention was to give credit to all of those necessary in preparation of the Digital Dissolve DVD. If the claim is that Fulves did not credit him, why was that not changed later on in the record? How am I responsible for that? I can only credit what the printed record acknowledges, and I am sure a simple letter could have done the trick. Who invented the gaff? That is the only credit that I believe is in question.

Here are what three very well known people give as credit to this gimmick:

- Karl Fulves says the gimmick has been around a long time, and is much older than he is.
- Presly Guitar, although came up with the gimmick on his own, later found out and acknowledged that the gimmick was also much older than he.
- Steve Dusheck says that he is the originator of this gimmick.

So the question here is whose gaff is it, and why was this not addressed and resolved decades ago? As anyone who has seen the Digital Dissolve DVD will notice, I have done my due diligence and credit all of those who have touched the gaff. As you know, it would have been much less expensive for us to create this gimmick ourselves, but it was very important to us for Jamie Schoolcraft to make the gimmicks for this effect-- as he is the only person in the world with permission from Steve Dusheck to create the coins. DD is not the same as C/S Transpo, and if you would like to try performing both of routines and show them around, you will notice the difference quickly.

I want to clear this up because I do believe people are getting a great effect that is different and valuable.

[chainzero]

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=163349&forum=3&start=0


i think that says it all. i was mistaken in my initial impression of improved ethics of the operators of this site over others. the sale of this item should be removed if they care about beign a ethical company at all. its up to T11 now to decide if they want to expiot thier customers who don;t know the facts for finanical gain for a product they were not given permission to release. maybe the thought is who needs ethics when you got good marketing.

There's always two sides to a story. Basically BJ gave one side, Mr. Dusheck gave his, and then you stated your conclusion (quite harshly) about the ethics of this site without a chance of rebuttal. Could you not have asked the same question without calling someone a liar?

[liquidsn]

This is the one thing that Magic will always have trouble with, giving credit where credit is due. Magic is a about secrets. I think all we can do is try to credit the best we can. If there is a problem, make sure we correct it. Don't point fingers at people. All the theory11 magicians here are respected and will do the right thing.

[Steve Simmons]

If I understand it right, and from speaking with several people, the question is not about the gaff at all.

The question is about the routine. From what I understand, it is the same routine that Steve Dusheck published in his notes back in 1982. They're also on his dvd. From what a few people have told me that have his dvd, it is an IDENTICAL routine. That is the main complaint about all this from what I've seen.

And BTW, I'm not getting involved really. Just stating some info as I UNDERSTAND IT. :D

Best.
Steve

[sean]

Regarding all this ethical rah rah. My question is:

Are we magicians or
POLITICIANS?

All this self-righteous holier than thou attitude is sickening. Instead of wasting time *****ing why not go out and astonish more people with it (with the time spend and also the effect).

Peace.

[joshua barrett]

ok guys ... this is the the last post i had on the cafe. forgive me if its hard to understand i spent alot of time tonight getting the facts. i talked to BJ on the phone and had some email correspondance with steve deuscheck.

ok guys iv had quite the long night. iv spend some hours tonight with a group of magicians here locally discussiong this. iv had some talk with steve via pm and email. iv spent a hour on the phone with bj beuno.

iv come up with some conclusion, and after alll of this im done with it. you have no idea the energy used to find out one thing. is the routine different?

the answer is yes.

do i think BJ should be able to sell the routine. yes

after finally getting the information i was always looking for i found these difference. DD is done at the finger tips using a new original switch showing hands empty of extra coins showing both sides of the coins and a visual transposition/change. only 2 real similarities exist based on my research of the routine. 1. both a c/s effect 2. same gaff

now my thoughts on the gaff matter is that permission was given to jamie schoolcraft to make these coins. to think that someone will only do ONE single routine with this gaff is a bit , i dunno... not reality? i am in no way questioning the creditbility of steve. i have mixed sources about the date of the coin but even bobo made mention of it for a sun moon effect, so even if steve marketed it first others thought of it before. im inclined to go on this patteren of thought as no one has questions karl's published routine with it ( that i do not have ) so even if steve thought of it before karl, it sets some precident with makeing routines using the gaff acceptable. if this is not a acceptable practice i beg those performming selling coin shell routines to find the orinator nad ask permission.

now to back my conclsuion on this after much thought, steve gave jamie permission to make and sell this gaff. jamie did just that, and someone sold a good routine using it. im sorry if such a arrangment is now regreted.

i can also say form talking to BJ he showed the routine and method to many people that every single one of you respects, if you want to know who ask BJ, he was very up front in saying that if you have a problem with this to ask him directly on T11 and he will address the issue.

i have more thoughts on this but im tired. im satisfied with the information given to me, and i hope everyone else is too. im sorry it was such a up and down road just for me to get a answer to one simple question when all i wanted to know was the difference. im not sure it was worth the time, but at least in my mind i know.

[joshua barrett]

Regarding all this ethical rah rah. My question is:

Are we magicians or
POLITICIANS?

All this self-righteous holier than thou attitude is sickening. Instead of wasting time *****ing why not go out and astonish more people with it (with the time spend and also the effect).

Peace.


sean im not sure who you are refering, maybe me. however if you don;t ask the questions you don;t get the answers. i recieved many PM's from members here who wonder the same thing i did. sometimes that answer does not come as easily as one might think when you mix in mis-understanding, gossip and hear-say some is falicy on my part. but it now its clear i hope.

like it for not its part of the buisness side of magic. as dirty as the policatics can be, it keep the good stuff churning out. like checks and balences. there is a positive and a negitve to it all. if you don;t wish to concern your self thats fine, but if someone don;t ask thw questions then no one will ever know. now people that wondered the same thing i did know, cause i asked the question.

[joshua barrett]

There's always two sides to a story. Basically BJ gave one side, Mr. Dusheck gave his, and then you stated your conclusion (quite harshly) about the ethics of this site without a chance of rebuttal. Could you not have asked the same question without calling someone a liar?

possiably, my remark was made after a misunderstand as BJ thought i was questiong the use of the gaff, when i was asking about the routines. i took this as avoidance. thats mis-communitaction for you. i can't apoligzies for the remark as i feel i did what i need to get a answer. i am sorry for the miscommunication that help cause this to turn into a mess.

on the fip side of things, bj was a real nice guy to talk to, and i could tell from chatting with him he's someone who cares alot about magic, as do I. if i didn't i none of this would have mattered to me and i would of just blindly accepted it all.

[Bizzaro]

It's situations in magic like this that caused me to write one of my articles in SM magazine. Credit where credit is due sure, however the how and why doesn't matter so much as the effect it creates on your audience. If you do ambitious card with a Svengali instead of double lifts does that make it any less amazing? Nay.

We tend to create new moves and gaffs for the sole purpose of not only ourselves but for other magicians to marvel at our own magnificence. We have to create. It's in our blood. Sometimes our paths cross. No reason to get up in arms over it. Life is short. Everyone relax.

Take the blue pill.

[Kyf]

I've been looking at the 1982 Steve Dusheck DVD for Copper/Silver Transpo that uses the SAME gaff (accepted as Steve Dusheck's invention) and his handling.

You can buy Steve's DVD $10 - it includes a HEAP of material and is excellent value.

Simple question really

What is "different" about Digital Dissolve that warrants BJ Bueno calling himself the "inventor" of either the gaff OR the handling?


Dr. G. Keith Still

[trashmanf]

Hey Bizzaro, love your articles, I would like you to write one about theory 11 !

[Glenn West]

I've been looking at the 1982 Steve Dusheck DVD for Copper/Silver Transpo that uses the SAME gaff (accepted as Steve Dusheck's invention) and his handling.

You can buy Steve's DVD $10 - it includes a HEAP of material and is excellent value.

Simple question really

What is "different" about Digital Dissolve that warrants BJ Bueno calling himself the "inventor" of either the gaff OR the handling?


Dr. G. Keith Still

The DVD for Steve's routine is only $10, really, wow. I assume no gaff is included. Where does he suggest obtaining the gaff then?

As for DD, I was reading in a locked thread on the Cafe about other people releasing material using this type of gaff. It lead to a debate about using gaffs etc by other people in your own completely different routines.

the argument was that you have to contact and credit the originator of the gimmick in question.

I have no problem with the necessity to credit, mind you, where doe sit lead? Who do we credit, and get permission for using a double backed card in a routine? How about a regular shell, or expanded shell?

I don't see anyone arguing about proper credit when ever someone publishes an effect using a half shell.

Any who, we all can clearly see and know what the presentations and effects presented in DD are, does anyone actually know what was done in Steve's effect? Besides the obvious C/S transpo.

I am imagining (pure guess and assumption here) that Steve used the gaff to create a temporary C/C coin, which could them be examined by simply removing the gaff. I read that he also had something using two gaffs for a hand to hand transpo.

Where as DD adds a very visual and open handling to the effect.

Again, I speak with no authority on Steve's effect and am just speculating.

Does anyone know what it consisted of?

In the end, i don't care too much, and I think that DD is worthy of its own release.

I am just curious about what C/S transpo consisted of.

[bugjack]

Again, I speak with no authority on Steve's effect and am just speculating.

Does anyone know what it consisted of?

In the end, i don't care too much, and I think that DD is worthy of its own release.

I am just curious about what C/S transpo consisted of.

Here, from Steve's website, is a description of the effect:

"C/S Transpo - A half dollar is freely shown on both sides. An English penny is also shown on both sides. The half dollar is placed into a spectator's hand and he is warned not to take his eyes off the English penny at you finger tips. The English penny instantly changes into the half dollar and is immediately shown on both sides. The English penny is in the spectator's hand. Both coins may be examined yet you may instantly repeat the trick. Yes, the secret gimmick is the famous one now copied by all the other machinists who don't like to give me credit for my creations."

[joshua barrett]

someone will surly cry for saying it here but what the heck. watch the DD trailer thats what it consists of. just being honest

[Glenn West]

LOL, to the last part of the quote.

Sounds a LOT like DD.

[genexis78]

Duscheck's routine is similar in plot to Digital Dissolve, but with different handling. I have seen both. And VERY extensive credits are listed in the Digital Dissolve DVD. Credit is definitely given where credit is due, and I respect that. BJ Bueno never claims to have invented the gaff - the full public record for its creation are listed in the DVD credits for all to see. The gaffs are manufactured by Jamie Schoolcraft, THE most respected coin gaff manufacturer who was personally given permission by Steve Duscheck to make this particular gimmick, although to be fair, the gimmick's origins are in dispute (but that's neither here nor there).

The fact of the matter is that the routines are similar, but not the same, and Digital Dissolve is one of the slickest coin effects I've come across in a long time. I only do 3 coin tricks in my performances, and this is one of the three. The coins are extremely well made, as well. No surprise there. Treasure it and use it wisely, and it will get you some GREAT reactions.

James.

[Glenn West]

Duscheck's routine is similar in plot to Digital Dissolve, but with different handling. I have seen both. And VERY extensive credits are listed in the Digital Dissolve DVD. Credit is definitely given where credit is due, and I respect that. BJ Bueno never claims to have invented the gaff - the full public record for its creation are listed in the DVD credits for all to see. The gaffs are manufactured by Jamie Schoolcraft, THE most respected coin gaff manufacturer who was personally given permission by Steve Duscheck to make this particular gimmick, although to be fair, the gimmick's origins are in dispute (but that's neither here nor there).

The fact of the matter is that the routines are similar, but not the same, and Digital Dissolve is one of the slickest coin effects I've come across in a long time. I only do 3 coin tricks in my performances, and this is one of the three. The coins are extremely well made, as well. No surprise there. Treasure it and use it wisely, and it will get you some GREAT reactions.

James.

Sweet. Finally, thanks for chipping in with this info.

I am sure that there is also lots of additional ideas and insight on the DD dvd.

If only I had a credit card, or they had paypal cough cough.

[Gary Yin]

So, whats the differents?

[joshua barrett]

nothing much

[Dave Wiltrout]

Well, in that case, then I guess I will just release my handling with the use of the same gaff then. I'll just credit Bueno and Duestcheck and all's good, right? I'll call it "Rip-Off"

I mean geez, come on everyone, including the team. What ever happened to respecting magic enough that nothing was ever released to anyone, but other confirmed magicians. Back in the day, no one ever had to argue semantics with crediting.

How about this...I'll perform Panic with Aces and then release it for profit. Whether or not I get permission from Aaron, do you think it's right of me to do this? Meaning taking someone elses idea that they perfected over the years and simply change something as small as a king to an ace and make money from it. Is that right? No, it is not. The situation with Digital Dissolve is damn near the same.

How about one of the team members ask Aaron if I have permission to do this and take full profit for it. No joke...someone ask and let's see what he'll say...Anyone willing to make a wager on what his answer will be?

Don't get me wrong, a copper silver transpo has long been a classic and a great. But it's all about the money anymore which is extemely depressing...


-Dave T. Wiltrout-

[joshua barrett]

dave said it just right. if someone did that with panic would aaron like it, no. but that what happens. Everyone gets mad at those who complain about it., but one day somone might steal your work.

[genexis78]

That's not a fair comparison if you're attempting to be factual. This is not a witch hunt, guys. Your metaphor is apples to oranges. Panic is an original plot with an original gimmick used in an original handling. Everything about it is original to Mr. Fisher. The Panic gimmick is original as well (although Aaron does credit earlier variations thereof in the DVD).

The Copper/Silver plot has been around for centuries - I'm not exaggerating (1584) - and there are TONS of variations and versions. The Sun and Moon coin included. Scotch and Soda included. Many of these variations DO utilize the same gimmicks, but these gimmicks have been around for decades, and the exact origin is more often than not in some state of dispute. I don't know who the true inventor of the gaff is, nor is that fact relevant in my performances. What IS important to me is that the public record of facts and credits is truthfully to the best of ability researched and listed, and that is exactly what Digital Dissolve includes in the video.

They've done their homework. They aren't mind readers though - they can only credit what the public record states. But to make this into a witch hunt when all of those involved in theory11 clearly have nothing but good intentions is simply offensive. Jamie Schoolcraft, who Mr. Duscheck gave permission to manufacture the Half Shell Gaff, is the most respected coin manufacturer in the industry, and he's joined by a lot of other creators I hold in extremely high regard in theory11. These guys credited the complete and accurate published record (check the DVD), and have done nothing wrong.

Is DD as an effect similar to C/S Transpo? Absolutely. But there's nothing wrong with that. DD's handling is unique, and DD is a new product. There are hundreds of variations of bill switches published as well; almost all of which vary only in the specific handling, which is - in the end - what can make or break an effect.

Sorry for the rant, but someone has to stand up for the facts.

James.

[joshua barrett]

panic is not a orignal plot. there are other vanishing decks, and there are some that vanish all but curtain cards. lets go over your "facts"

we already covered one. panic is not a original plot. thats fine but your still wrong

DD handling is unique. wrong, handles the same. sorry

Duscheck did NOT give permission for them to release this or market it with his gaff. if you don;t beleive me send me a PM and ill show you the email steve sent to me on this

i don;t care how many C/S tricks there are or have been the fact of the matter is the handling/gaff/usage is the same.

iv tried to get out of this discussion but your supposed facts are fabricated or uneducated

[JustinClark]

dave said it just right. if someone did that with panic would aaron like it, no. but that what happens. Everyone gets mad at those who complain about it., but one day somone might steal your work.
I agree but I also wonder, When someone creates an effect using a double back card should someone be credited for inventing the db card? (If it usually is I have never seen it). Or should the double lift be credited for every routine using it? How about the classic pass? This isnt an argumentative post, Im simply curious.

[joshua barrett]

justin, think about it this way. you create a trick using that double backed card, and sell it. i make the same effect using nerely identical handling and sell it with a new name. should i have asked you first? and if you said no, and thats what happened here, should i do it anyway and plead that mine is better even tho its the EXACT SAME

[genexis78]

Joshua:

If that's your opinion, that is fine, but the facts do not say the same. I have PERFORMED both versions. Have you? Have you even seen both versions? You have to go by the facts and the public record. Duscheck unequivocally gave Jamie Schoolcraft permission to create the gaff. Did he give Todd Lassen permission? Why is Todd Lassen selling it on his website (http://toddlassen.com/sam.htm)? I think not, and no credit or footnote is included there. That's not the case here. Credit is given exactly where due. I bought the DVD myself. If Mr. Duscheck is upset that another C/S effect is now released, that is unfortunate, because there will surely in time be many many more C/S effects released. The plot has been in print and around since the Discovery of Witchcraft. 1584.

The effect inarguably has distinct differences in handling. I know because I have PERFORMED both versions. The only authorized manufacturer of the coins to date is Jamie Schoolcraft, and that is who is making these. The homework has been done for Digital Dissolve, and the credits are listed in the DVD.

I think that the published record speaks volumes in this case, and it's sad to see incredible creators being burned at the stake by those less than completely informed. For the respect to both artists, if Mr. Duscheck does have an issue, he should discuss it professionally with BJ Bueno. But because there is no wrong being committed here, I see no reason for ill will and bad feelings.

I'm sorry for another lengthy post. Now I'llget back to the magic. There's already some great new handling ideas on this very forum (in addition to the ideas on the DVD by Mr. Asher and Mr. Fisher). I've already read some stuff that have polished my act even more than it was. What's important to me is that credit is given where credit is due, and that we respect all of those creators who - with positive intent - work to advance this artform.

James.

[Glenn West]

Well, in that case, then I guess I will just release my handling with the use of the same gaff then. I'll just credit Bueno and Duestcheck and all's good, right? I'll call it "Rip-Off"

I mean geez, come on everyone, including the team. What ever happened to respecting magic enough that nothing was ever released to anyone, but other confirmed magicians. Back in the day, no one ever had to argue semantics with crediting.

How about this...I'll perform Panic with Aces and then release it for profit. Whether or not I get permission from Aaron, do you think it's right of me to do this? Meaning taking someone elses idea that they perfected over the years and simply change something as small as a king to an ace and make money from it. Is that right? No, it is not. The situation with Digital Dissolve is damn near the same.

How about one of the team members ask Aaron if I have permission to do this and take full profit for it. No joke...someone ask and let's see what he'll say...Anyone willing to make a wager on what his answer will be?

Don't get me wrong, a copper silver transpo has long been a classic and a great. But it's all about the money anymore which is extemely depressing...


-Dave T. Wiltrout-


Back in the day, lol. Hell no that was not the case. There was PLENTY of dispute about proper crediting "back in the day." That's what Marlo was for.

As for DD, well, the gaffs are being made by Schoolcraft, who was given permission by Steve to make them. Also, so far, Steve seems to be to the only person NOT to pipe in with an opinion.

[Gary Yin]

Changing something making a variation doesn't make you the "inventor" :mad:

and yes, Joshua has both routines.

edit: Oh yeah about the credit thingy. It is good if I make a DVD teaching how to do the Harada Hold and give credit to Daiki Harada? Well, Teaching the Harada Hold is not even mine, and that makes me cannot make the DVD EVEN if I'd put credits to Daiki Harada.

[Pathian]

Also, so far, Steve seems to be to the only person NOT to pipe in with an opinion.

Actually, Steve has voiced his opinion on the cafe.

It seems the people claiming I did not create the sliding gimmick and the routine are those involved with making money from my idea.
My routine and gimmick were out long before anyone else thought to use it. Hank Lee advertised my trick before it was ever published by Fulve's. Does that mean Fulve's copied my idea? I didn't care one way or another.
Jon Townsend stated that Slippery Sam (a magnetic version of my C/S Transpo) was put out in 1976. He is wrong. The copyright on the Gibson instructions is 1971. Townsend told me Bob Elliot bought one and demonstrated it at Tannen's magic shop, telling everyone how great it was. Later, when he wrote his routine for Fulve's, no mention was made of my trick or Eddie Gibson.
When I fooled Don Alan with my C/S Transpo, he asked me to do it for Pressly Guitar. I did and fooled him, too. It was after my showing him how it worked that he started making his half dollar version, but using my routine.
These people claim Guitar sold his gimmick before I made mine, but they offer no proof. Only the word of their friends. But my word is not good enough. One of my specialties was inventing coin tricks. I put out a lot of them. I only manufactured tricks I created. The dealers' ads will show that. There is no proof that Guitar invented any magic tricks, except the stories he told.
I did not give BJ Bueno permission to put out his version of my trick. I have given permission to all the other machinists who asked for it. I did give Jamie Schoolcraft permission to make my gimmick. I feel very sad that he is making the trick.
If there are any machinists reading this who would like to manufacture my C/S Transpo with my full permission, please contact me at my website.

[jimbowmanjr]

That post from Steve Dusheck is rather interesting. It almost appears as if he is looking to take back the permission he gave Schoolcraft because of his involvement in this project. Then again he apparently didn't give Lassen permission to make the gimmick either but he continues to produce it. I guess it doesn't matter either way these days....

[joshua barrett]

its not that is A c/s routine. that would be silly. the fact is its his particular c/s routine. credit is not given where its due as it has someone elses name in the title.

[trashmanf]

well this just blows the hype right out. I made a post about how theory 11 copied other's work and claimed it as their own "revolutionary, underground magic" and a moderator immediately deleted it. He said it was because what I wrote was untrue, but now that it's been proven that it IS true, I wonder why my post was REALLY deleted?

[Glenn West]

Actually, Steve has voiced his opinion on the cafe.


Odd, i read a similar post that was made years back, with, clearly, no mention of DD, as it was years ago.

I did not see this post.

Mind you I had not seen much from Steve in a while now, which is why I was not surprised to not hear from him yet on this matter.

[joshua barrett]

others have ripped him off thats one reason you never hear from him. he told me he only sells to a list of people he compliled to stop the coping of his work

[Glenn West]

others have ripped him off thats one reason you never hear from him. he told me he only sells to a list of people he compliled to stop the coping of his work

Yeah, I had heard most of that, which was why I was surprised with his Downloadmagic site.

Mind you, I'm not complaining, it had one of the best card on [in] ceiling effects I've ever learnt.

[Gary Yin]

T11 not gonna sound their opinion?

[warlock]

ok guys ... this is the the last post i had on the cafe. forgive me if its hard to understand i spent alot of time tonight getting the facts. i talked to BJ on the phone and had some email correspondance with steve deuscheck.

ok guys iv had quite the long night. iv spend some hours tonight with a group of magicians here locally discussiong this. iv had some talk with steve via pm and email. iv spent a hour on the phone with bj beuno.

iv come up with some conclusion, and after alll of this im done with it. you have no idea the energy used to find out one thing. is the routine different?

the answer is yes.

do i think BJ should be able to sell the routine. yes

after finally getting the information i was always looking for i found these difference. DD is done at the finger tips using a new original switch showing hands empty of extra coins showing both sides of the coins and a visual transposition/change. only 2 real similarities exist based on my research of the routine. 1. both a c/s effect 2. same gaff

now my thoughts on the gaff matter is that permission was given to jamie schoolcraft to make these coins. to think that someone will only do ONE single routine with this gaff is a bit , i dunno... not reality? i am in no way questioning the creditbility of steve. i have mixed sources about the date of the coin but even bobo made mention of it for a sun moon effect, so even if steve marketed it first others thought of it before. im inclined to go on this patteren of thought as no one has questions karl's published routine with it ( that i do not have ) so even if steve thought of it before karl, it sets some precident with makeing routines using the gaff acceptable. if this is not a acceptable practice i beg those performming selling coin shell routines to find the orinator nad ask permission.

now to back my conclsuion on this after much thought, steve gave jamie permission to make and sell this gaff. jamie did just that, and someone sold a good routine using it. im sorry if such a arrangment is now regreted.

i can also say form talking to BJ he showed the routine and method to many people that every single one of you respects, if you want to know who ask BJ, he was very up front in saying that if you have a problem with this to ask him directly on T11 and he will address the issue.

i have more thoughts on this but im tired. im satisfied with the information given to me, and i hope everyone else is too. im sorry it was such a up and down road just for me to get a answer to one simple question when all i wanted to know was the difference. im not sure it was worth the time, but at least in my mind i know.

this was said on the 2nd page of this thread by the thread poster after doing research and clearly stating that he was done. i'm guessing he changed his mind. why are you people still arguing about this??

[jimbowmanjr]

There is an 8-page thread on the Magic Cafe discussing this release. It is pointless to even bother trying to discuss it here as it is painfully obvious most people could give a rats ass about what actually happened.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=163349&forum=202&218

--Jim

[joshua barrett]

warlock this was after i talked to BJ on the phone. in that call i gave him the benifit of believeing what he said. that was ebfore i got to see the origonal routine. it was bad judgment on my part to listen to him, but i want to beleive that people not as bad as they are. no one is augueing this any longer. i have come here and answered questions such as this.

adn to be frank, most of us that give half a crap are of the same accord on this, the only oppoistion iv heard is RL friends of BJ, and people who think they "wouldn't do somthing like that"

[warlock]

thank you for the clarification.

[trashmanf]

i have a question are ANY of the theory 11 one-trick DVD gimmicks original?

I mean,i'm sure the routines are slightly new like they have slightly different handlings or whatever, but are any of the gimmicks original?

I have heard the coins, the changing "sliding card", and the panic gimmick are ALL from many years back.

[BlueBackedBikes]

Panic is the only new idea/product that T11 carries. Distortion and Digital Dissolve have all been sold or published elsewhere; not the case with Panic. Props out to you, Aaron!

[jimbowmanjr]

What is original about Panic? I am guessing it is just Aaron's handling of the gimmick that is new there.

Lee Asher's release is actually a re-release from his Thinking Out Loud booklet in DVD format. TOL is $12 by the way and you get 6 effects/sleights with it.

The 1-on-1 sessions....tricks/sleights from Kenner's book in video format.

All in all, a major letdown in my opinion given all the hype leading up to this site coming online.

--Jim

[Glenn West]

What is original about Panic? I am guessing it is just Aaron's handling of the gimmick that is new there.

Lee Asher's release is actually a re-release from his Thinking Out Loud booklet in DVD format. TOL is $12 by the way and you get 6 effects/sleights with it.

The 1-on-1 sessions....tricks/sleights from Kenner's book in video format.

All in all, a major letdown in my opinion given all the hype leading up to this site coming online.

--Jim
Um, where have you seen the gimmick before?

Ok, technically you could say it is a variation of a gimmick that Josh Jay popularized, however it is still very different in its design and its use. You could see the two side by side and they would look nothing alike.

I have not seen this gimmick before, nor an effect quite like Panic. Well, yes, there are plenty of vanishing decks, but still, nothing like Panic.

EDIT, I mixed up Fearson with Deusheck .

Infact,I did a few times i the thread, with the Download magic site reference.

[Chicken]

I'm not sure on this, but I'm guessing Todd Lassen is selling the gaff because he was the the machinist for Bob Kohler's U3F, and Bob had permission from Steve Dushek.

-Chicken

[Gary Yin]

Response please T11. Trying to make this thread bury under threads?

[word]

I dont think anyone is trying to bury this.

ok guys ... this is the the last post i had on the cafe. forgive me if its hard to understand i spent alot of time tonight getting the facts. i talked to BJ on the phone and had some email correspondance with steve deuscheck.

ok guys iv had quite the long night. iv spend some hours tonight with a group of magicians here locally discussiong this. iv had some talk with steve via pm and email. iv spent a hour on the phone with bj beuno.

iv come up with some conclusion, and after alll of this im done with it. you have no idea the energy used to find out one thing. is the routine different?

the answer is yes.

do i think BJ should be able to sell the routine. yes

after finally getting the information i was always looking for i found these difference. DD is done at the finger tips using a new original switch showing hands empty of extra coins showing both sides of the coins and a visual transposition/change. only 2 real similarities exist based on my research of the routine. 1. both a c/s effect 2. same gaff

now my thoughts on the gaff matter is that permission was given to jamie schoolcraft to make these coins. to think that someone will only do ONE single routine with this gaff is a bit , i dunno... not reality? i am in no way questioning the creditbility of steve. i have mixed sources about the date of the coin but even bobo made mention of it for a sun moon effect, so even if steve marketed it first others thought of it before. im inclined to go on this patteren of thought as no one has questions karl's published routine with it ( that i do not have ) so even if steve thought of it before karl, it sets some precident with makeing routines using the gaff acceptable. if this is not a acceptable practice i beg those performming selling coin shell routines to find the orinator nad ask permission.

now to back my conclsuion on this after much thought, steve gave jamie permission to make and sell this gaff. jamie did just that, and someone sold a good routine using it. im sorry if such a arrangment is now regreted.

i can also say form talking to BJ he showed the routine and method to many people that every single one of you respects, if you want to know who ask BJ, he was very up front in saying that if you have a problem with this to ask him directly on T11 and he will address the issue.

i have more thoughts on this but im tired. im satisfied with the information given to me, and i hope everyone else is too. im sorry it was such a up and down road just for me to get a answer to one simple question when all i wanted to know was the difference. im not sure it was worth the time, but at least in my mind i know.

[Gary Yin]

Read the posts after that post.

[jimbowmanjr]

Here is a bit of an education on this entire matter from Marc DeSouza on the Cafe:


Hi All,

First, to JTW, I do not claim any authority on anything in magic, however, I know the history on this matter. Please pay attention to what you are about to read, because I do not intend to post on this issue again. You will not hear any rebuttal to these facts from Fulves, Elliott or Guitar, because to do so would be a lie. Steve Dusheck created the sliding shell in the mid-60's. He sold one of the first ones to J.G. Thompson. He gave Eddie Gibson of England the right to manufacture and market the idea with Steve's Slippery Sam routine in 1970. Gibson marketed it and the copyright date on the instructions is 1971. Bob Elliott bought a set and worked out his routine. Karl Fulves asked for permission to publish it, which he did in Pallbearer's Review. BTW, for BJ's information, that magazine did not exist in the 50's. Fulves claimed that the idea for the sliding shell was old, but when challenged on that fact, he later recanted and admitted that Dusheck created it.

Steve showed his routine to Don Alan. Pressley Guitar was there and freaked out over it. He bugged Steve for it and Steve not only showed him the gaff but explained exactly how to make it.

B.J. Bueno spoke to Steve Dusheck several years ago and wanted his permission to market his routine. Steve offered to sell him the gaffs wholesale "As long as he was not marketing it as a Copper/Silver Transposition". B.J. could not do that. He went to Todd Lassen to get the gaffs made, but Lassen did not have Steve's permission to do that. Jamie Schoolcraft asked Steve for permission to make the gaffs for customers. Steve gave him permission on the assumtion that it would be for guys who wanted a special version of the gaff. I don't believe that T11 told Jamie what they wanted the gaffs for, but I cannot attest to that fact for certain. All I know is that I was called by a mutual friend who said that "Jamie is sick over this and wants to talk to Steve to make things right".

I spoke to Steve Duscheck the other evening and he is sick over this whole fiasco. I feel the same way. I find it very distressing that several talented young men who I call friends would stoop to this level of thievery. I have had the pleasure of calling Steve Dusheck my friend for many years. He has helped me over the years in so many ways, not the least of which creating effects specifically for my repertoire. I consider him one of the five most creative men, if not in the entire history of magic, at least in the last 100 years. It is a pity that repeated activities such as this have caused him to retreat from magic. Everyone in our art will suffer for that, instead of being able to enjoy so many more fruits of his labors.

Marc DeSouza



Hopefully this clears up many of the questions people have had and refutes a few claims that have been posted in this thread thus far. I don't know if Marc is even a member of these forums but I doubt he is going to comment on this again. Likewise I am done commenting and arguing on this as well as most of my questions have been answered.

--Jim

[Sean [that's heavy...]]

Wow! Thanks Mr. Jim! and Mr Desouza!

I'm not going to give my opinion, as i don't really know anything on this matter...

HOWEVER, I don't see any of the T11 homies arguing against this, so so far, i have to side against them...

x

P.S. Panic is original and Aaron Fisher is awesome.

[Mesmer]

Hopefully this clears up many of the questions people have had and refutes a few claims that have been posted in this thread thus far. I don't know if Marc is even a member of these forums but I doubt he is going to comment on this again. Likewise I am done commenting and arguing on this as well as most of my questions have been answered.

--Jim

Thanks for posting that Jim. I don't get on the Cafe much, and I would have hated to miss that. Can someone from the Theory 11 team please respond? The LAST thing we need is a repeat of what happened with Garcia's Life effect on the E forums!

[trashmanf]

what happened, people realized for the same amount of $$$, they could have got "folding money foolers" with lots more effects?

I have to ask because I just tried to log in to ellusionist for the first time in a while and found I was banned.... I LOL'd !

so yeah I sincerely doubt we are going to hear anything from Theory 11 about this. Because when I posted that all their "revolutionary, underground" hype was lies, and that ALL these effects are based on (or total copies) of existing gimmicks and routines, they deleted my post. If they were interested in actually addressing the issue they would respond rather than delete.

[UnholyGodn]

I don't really care if it's someone elses trick exactly or not. Theory11 was said to weed out tricks that didn't offer anything new, a source for hard hitting effects. If this is so similar to another trick available, then what is it doing here? What is the difference between Theory11 and any other store if it is selling remade videos of old tricks?

[trashmanf]

I don't really care if it's someone elses trick exactly or not. Theory11 was said to weed out tricks that didn't offer anything new, a source for hard hitting effects. If this is so similar to another trick available, then what is it doing here? What is the difference between Theory11 and any other store if it is selling remade videos of old tricks?

Well that's easy, the difference is the amount of hype and flashy looks (as opposed to substance)

for example the "moving pip" card isn't anything new , that you couldn't buy at many magic stores, but now it's DISTORTION and an incredible hard-hitting trick worth an entire DVD. :D it's just to make some money off n00bs, I can hardly blame the guys for milking this cash cow ;)

they basically saw what ellusionist was doing and were like, "we need to get a piece of this action!!!"

*estimated time till post deletion : 15 seconds and counting... 14...

[jimbowmanjr]

Um, where have you seen the gimmick before?

Ok, technically you could say it is a variation of a gimmick that Josh Jay popularized, however it is still very different in its design and its use. You could see the two side by side and they would look nothing alike.

I have not seen this gimmick before, nor an effect quite like Panic. Well, yes, there are plenty of vanishing decks, but still, nothing like Panic.

EDIT, I mixed up Fearson with Deusheck .

Infact,I did a few times i the thread, with the Download magic site reference.

Not sure how I missed this question but I don't read these forums much anymore so I am just getting back to this now. I was genuinely asking if Panic was new but I realize it didn't come across that way looking back at it now. I thought I had seen someone mention that this wasn't a new gimmick but they could be totally wrong as I haven't been able to actually find it anywhere, which makes me even more wrong for repeating it.

I am sure whatever routine and handlings Aaron has come up with are original in this case as it appears to be the only effect that has not gotten bashed backwards and forwards up to this point. I have always had a deep respect for Aaron, I guess you could say I am slightly disappointed that he is associated with this company considering their track record thus far.

Peace and hair grease,

Jim

[joshua barrett]

aarons gimmick is sorta new. there have been other versions but i will say that aarons take on is the best iv seen. its not totally original like many promises of the site would like one to think, but its hands down the best gimmicked vanishing deck iv seen.

[Steve Dusheck]

You might say I'm Steve Dusheck's biggest fan.

With all the information that's come to light recently I'm wondering why this topic fails to get a response from anyone in the Theory 11 crew, more specifically from BJ Bueno?

Steve has contributed so much to the art of magic for so many years, why weren't his wishes honored?

For the sake of those who missed it and to save everyone the trouble of searching the entire thread, I'll reprint what I feel is the most important part of the discussion, shared by Mark DeSouza:


"..B.J. Bueno spoke to Steve Dusheck several years ago and wanted his permission to market his routine. Steve offered to sell him the gaffs wholesale "As long as he was not marketing it as a Copper/Silver Transposition". B.J. could not do that. He went to Todd Lassen to get the gaffs made, but Lassen did not have Steve's permission to do that. Jamie Schoolcraft asked Steve for permission to make the gaffs for customers. Steve gave him permission on the assumtion that it would be for guys who wanted a special version of the gaff. I don't believe that T11 told Jamie what they wanted the gaffs for, but I cannot attest to that fact for certain. All I know is that I was called by a mutual friend who said that "Jamie is sick over this and wants to talk to Steve to make things right".

I spoke to Steve Duscheck the other evening and he is sick over this whole fiasco. I feel the same way. I find it very distressing that several talented young men who I call friends would stoop to this level of thievery. I have had the pleasure of calling Steve Dusheck my friend for many years. He has helped me over the years in so many ways, not the least of which creating effects specifically for my repertoire. I consider him one of the five most creative men, if not in the entire history of magic, at least in the last 100 years. It is a pity that repeated activities such as this have caused him to retreat from magic. Everyone in our art will suffer for that, instead of being able to enjoy so many more fruits of his labors.

Marc DeSouza"



This leaves me wondering how many of the Theory 11 guys were in on this?


C'mon guys, someone must care about the reputation of your new company or at least your individual reputations.

Please clear this up. There's been a lot of denial and now the truth has been revealed. It's time to acknowledge the truth yourselves. If you have no respect for someone like Dusheck, who will respect you?

If not for Dusheck's sake, do it for the young creators who will undoubtedly be discouraged from contributing lest the same thing happen to them. Respond for the many young people who consider you role models.

They joined Theory 11 hoping to be part of something that would advance the art of magic. They've contributed to your forums, they've given you their money. Now they have questions. They deserve answers.

Don't let them down.

[C=B]

Not to stir the pot on this issue (Which, I believe needs to be stirred.. but anyway)... DD is move for move identical to the third phase of Lance Delong's C/S routine "As Slick Trick" on his "Warning: Sleight Of Hand Required Volume II" DVD. Which is at www.kozmomagic.com


Sharp

[trashmanf]

Nothing but silence from the T11 people.

I believe they're "taking the fifth" as anything they say will either incriminate themselves, or, be a blatant lie. Way to found a company, guys :(

[The Dark Angel]

Not to stir the pot on this issue (Which, I believe needs to be stirred.. but anyway)... DD is move for move identical to the third phase of Lance Delong's C/S routine "As Slick Trick" on his "Warning: Sleight Of Hand Required Volume II" DVD. Which is at www.kozmomagic.com


Sharp

They have a product called Heiny 500, wherein five $1 bills transform into five $100 dollar bills.
For some reason, I'm doubting that Heiny 500 is an original product, which makes me question their business ethics.

[jimbowmanjr]

Don't let them down.

In order to be let down people would actually have to care in the first place. It is my impression that most people around here and in these forums could honestly care less for the most part. Doesn't affect them and they get a cheap effect that includes a gaff coin. Turning a blind eye works great until it ultimately ends up hitting home at some stage of your life. Karma has a wonderful way of coming back around to even things up sooner or later, my only hope is that it is sooner rather than later.

I think the time frame for being let down was weeks ago at this point. I actually came to the decision back then that I was never going to buy anything here regardless of how appealing it is or how much hype it gets because of how things were handled with this one individual effect. Everyone involved with this project and those who are affiliated with the company are guilty in their silence by not stepping out to make some statement. Goodbye.

--Jim

[magicmagicmagic]

Well that's easy, the difference is the amount of hype and flashy looks (as opposed to substance)

for example the "moving pip" card isn't anything new , that you couldn't buy at many magic stores, but now it's DISTORTION and an incredible hard-hitting trick worth an entire DVD. :D it's just to make some money off n00bs, I can hardly blame the guys for milking this cash cow ;)

they basically saw what ellusionist was doing and were like, "we need to get a piece of this action!!!"

*estimated time till post deletion : 15 seconds and counting... 14...


It's about time people started to realize this, it was almost obvious right out of the box.... boooooooo

[C=B]

They have a product called Heiny 500, wherein five $1 bills transform into five $100 dollar bills.
For some reason, I'm doubting that Heiny 500 is an original product, which makes me question their business ethics.

I've seen Heiny 500 in person (performed by Karl Himself) and it is, he admits, a new handling of the Hundy 500. For some reason he feels it important to market a new handling using the same gimmick, false count... everything. Kinda odd to me...

Although Lance Delong was out waaay before T11. And I trust Justin Miller and his ethics, he would not work with Kozmo on his own projects if they were unethical. I have met Justin and know what a person he really is and thats the only reason I trust Kozmo.


I can't say i'm surprised by the whole issue... but I am let down. "Great Minds" like Chris Kenner, the Bucks, W:H and such getting involved in such a thing... tisk tisk tisk...

Sharp

[Kubcm]

You are right on two accounts, one your are entitle to your own opinion, and two you will be bashed for it. If you going to give your opinion make sure you at least have your facts straight. B.J has given his side of the story if fact he did it twice in this thread and Steve through the Cafe gave his side so both sides have been accounted for as well as numerous third parties have jumped in as well. Joshua has done a great job in trying to sort it all out and came to a pretty good conclusion based on this information, I suggest you go back and read it. I do agree with you in one fact that this incident will not stop me from making purchases from T11 in the future cause they do have some top notch guys here but I will do it with more caution. One last thing and the real reason I responded to your message was your statement "So, all in all, whether or not Theory 11 stole that effect from another magician is none of my business, and I couldn't really care if they did or not" This statement really annoyed the hell out of me and it shows what type of character you have. Its never ok.....never to steal someone else work, to take money out of that persons pocket and put it into yours. Your a magician its your business to support/reward the works of innovated, creative magicians whether you buy their stuff or not, not reward the people who steal it, What we are left with is the innovated/creative people who stop creating because of being rip off so much, now how is that good for magic? Think what you want about this whole DD issue, but I implore you to reconsider you statement about supporting anybody, any store that makes a habit out of stealing/ripping off another persons work.

[The Dark Angel]

You are right on two accounts, one your are entitle to your own opinion, and two you will be bashed for it. If you going to give your opinion make sure you at least have your facts straight. B.J has given his side of the story if fact he did it twice in this thread and Steve through the Cafe gave his side so both sides have been accounted for as well as numerous third parties have jumped in as well. Joshua has done a great job in trying to sort it all out and came to a pretty good conclusion based on this information, I suggest you go back and read it. I do agree with you in one fact that this incident will not stop me from making purchases from T11 in the future cause they do have some top notch guys here but I will do it with more caution. One last thing and the real reason I responded to your message was your statement "So, all in all, whether or not Theory 11 stole that effect from another magician is none of my business, and I couldn't really care if they did or not" This statement really annoyed the hell out of me and it shows what type of character you have. Its never ok.....never to steal someone else work, to take money out of that persons pocket and put it into yours. Your a magician its your business to support/reward the works of innovated, creative magicians whether you buy their stuff or not, not reward the people who steal it, What we are left with is the innovated/creative people who stop creating because of being rip off so much, now how is that good for magic? Think what you want about this whole DD issue, but I implore you to reconsider you statement about supporting anybody, any store that makes a habit out of stealing/ripping off another persons work.

You are right.
It isn't right to steal someone's work and profit off of it.
I deleted the post, and apologize to any who may have been offended.

[j.bayme]

Guys,

Felt the need to chime in on this now and let you guys know the scoop. Over the past month there have been some concerns raised about crediting in Digital Dissolve. From the moment that these concerns were raised, we began to look into the matter further.

Our entire team (BJ Bueno, Lee Asher, Jamie Schoolcraft, Aaron Fisher, Chris Kenner, Dan White, Wayne Houchin, Dana Hocking, Aaron Shields, and myself) have spent the last full month researching the matter further and working towards resolving the issue, as we wanted to have all the facts in hand before responding, especially in a public forum.

theory11 is a site and community created by and for the artists. We have the utmost focus on ethics and respect within our community and we can assure you that we are doing everything within our power to resolve the issue; this has included weeks of additional research into the matter by our entire team on every level.

With that said, we understand that our silence on the forums over the past few weeks may have led some to believe that we have done nothing and just don't care-- absolutely nothing could be further from the truth. Our lack of response on the public forums should in no way be misconstrued as a lack of response overall. We never did become involved in the back and forth on the forums regarding the issue, and that decision was made intentionally as we all wanted to seek and resolve the issue directly, amicably, and respectfully before discussing the matter in an open, public forum.

Many of you know and are familiar with individuals within our team, and therefore know how seriously we take ethics within our art. We are working to resolve the issue with all artists involved as we speak, and we will let you know as soon as more information becomes available. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

[joshua barrett]

thanks for a update. i do sincerely hope something gets worked out and everyone can win

[wpt1031]

Its good hear something from you guys.

[bugjack]

I've been interested in buying this but, out of respect to all parties, have been holding off until I see how this situation is resolved. When do you think you will be able to post a more definitive statement regarding your position?

[duffman]

hmm.. 10 people and one full month plus all the time you hopefully spent researching before you released the product and you still haven't discovered anything?

I might be missing something but from what I can see, that "official" response says just about nothing more than you guys realizing you might actually be wrong, and since you're openly admitting that, I'm confused as to why the product is still for sale while this "research" is taking place?
Shouldn't you wait with selling it until you're absolutely sure you're actually allowed?
You had no problem withdrawing a bunch of playing cards worth alot of money (if that's true, lets say it is) but you can't withdraw this which should be alot more important, considering how much you guys care about ethics...

[bugjack]

Well, in my post I decided not to put it like you did... but I pretty much agree with what you just wrote.

[harapanong]

You know something?

I just lost a lot of respect for Theory 11. Until they can give us a proper answer to Digital Dissolve's originality, I still stand that T11 is at fault.

You know something else?

For those who remember and know me, I was one of those people who looked at T11 and thought "Let's make it happen" and "I trust these people in making T11 advance magic". Now, I am beginning to think otherwise.

This is going to sound bad, but I think that the T11 artists (Mr Asher, the Buck Twins, Mr Fisher, Mr Kenner, Mr Bich etc) were all kind of "pulled in" to T11 with high promises. They're hired as artists and nothing more - providing the effects T11 needed. At this point, I still have full trust in them - these people had given us good products in the past. So why does it seem to be so bad now?

If there's a problem with T11, it has to lie in the head of T11. Or at least the head team.

And you know what I am talking about. I am trying hard not to offend anyone...

I am beginning to distrust Mr Bayme and his team's credentials.

- harapan. magic!

[joshua barrett]

i have not made a real comment in a while but what i find questionable is the "we don't know yet" front that is being put on. we know from credable sources that jamie schoolcraft feels bad about this and was not aware of the product being paired with gaffs, only that a quantity was needed for a low cost for sale on this site, if you didn't know what you were doing was wrong why the cloak and dagger approch to obtaining them? jamie is a stand up guy and i doubt if you said, we are released our un-authorized version of steves trick and need 500 gaffed coins cheap, that he would have done it.

also, i am a magic nobody yet iv talked to steve, bj, and 3 others in the know that don't want to be named in this mess and i was able to gather information, even though i had to pile through some lies and confusion that you can see from previous posts in this thread. i find it hard to beleive people with a real name in magic, is having a harder time then i getting the answers

[trashmanf]

they're probably having a hard time because they're trying to find an answer that doesn't implicate them some how. the answers out there, right now, expose theory 11 as a cloning site that takes old tricks and wraps them up in shiny new packaging and hype.

[magicmagicmagic]

You know something?

I just lost a lot of respect for Theory 11. Until they can give us a proper answer to Digital Dissolve's originality, I still stand that T11 is at fault.

You know something else?

For those who remember and know me, I was one of those people who looked at T11 and thought "Let's make it happen" and "I trust these people in making T11 advance magic". Now, I am beginning to think otherwise.

This is going to sound bad, but I think that the T11 artists (Mr Asher, the Buck Twins, Mr Fisher, Mr Kenner, Mr Bich etc) were all kind of "pulled in" to T11 with high promises. They're hired as artists and nothing more - providing the effects T11 needed. At this point, I still have full trust in them - these people had given us good products in the past. So why does it seem to be so bad now?

If there's a problem with T11, it has to lie in the head of T11. Or at least the head team.

And you know what I am talking about. I am trying hard not to offend anyone...

I am beginning to distrust Mr Bayme and his team's credentials.

- harapan. magic!

I wish I could disagree with this... I really am trying to. Sadly, alas I can not. ::sigh::

[duffman]

If there's a problem with T11, it has to lie in the head of T11. Or at least the head team.

And you know what I am talking about. I am trying hard not to offend anyone...

I am beginning to distrust Mr Bayme and his team's credentials.

- harapan. magic!

Thinking the same thing, it's simply ellusionist all over again from the same people..

And yes, I'm still hoping atleast Asher, Fisher and the Bucks get out of this clean somehow. (No disrespect to the other artists, but these are the ones I "know", and from what I know these should have nothing to do with stuff like this.)

[joshua barrett]

i don't put much blame in many of the artist personally. i know they have no real control and are contratual obligated, but i must wonder if they will stick around after said contract ends

[TheJoker]

Lately I've been trying to decide what the right thing to do has been... and let me tell you, its frickin' hard! :( For instance, I've been reading lots of forums and such, and from my information, Schoolcraft ripped a couple of things from Lassen. I originally saw Schoolcrafts' stuff, and thought it was cool. I also found that its cheaper than Lassens' stuff, but if the above information is true... do I shell out the extra cash and do what is "right"? Or do I take the low road and keep a little pocket money?

Now for the topic discussed in here... If the information is true (some overlapping going on here) that Schoolcraft has the permission to make these gaffs, and Lassen doesn't, but Schoolcraft didn't know that these gaffs that he must have sold to T11 for a pretty low price, was going to paired with a DVD, do I buy the gaff from Schoolcraft and try to figure out the method in the DVD, or do I keep an extra 30 bucks in my pocket and take the DVD and gaff from t11?

If only the right decision was cheaper!!!:rolleyes: Ah well....

Please respond (also if someone could pm me just to tell me what the gaff is named, so I can figure out just how much morality is going to cost me...)

[duffman]

Posted by Steve Dusheck over here http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=227479&forum=202&start=90

"Once my latest health problem is resolved I intend to start making my gimmicks again since no one can even copy them properly. I do not sell to any magic dealers so I don't have to sell wholes sale at 50% to 60% off the retail price. That means I hope be selling my gimmicks for about $15.00 with printed instrustions that will include additional routines. For those of you who insist on DVD instructions I will have an optional DVD available for about $5.00."

You should take a look at the rest he wrote btw, but just to answer your question, about 20$ to do the right thing if you can hang on a few it seems :)

[magicmagicmagic]

yooooo i just read that link in the magic cafe, Thats crazy!!!! T11 better not delete that link unless they really got something to hide. If thats true then I would hope what goes around comes around. Sad yall, really sad.

AND still no REAL answer from T11... good way to dodge the bullet, Bayme. Cute little post about how you strive for this and that then still hope it goes away? We waited, hows about a real answer?

[j.bayme]

Mr. Dusheck, et al,

After exhaustively speaking with everyone here at theory11, I have decided to completely suspend sales of Digital Dissolve until we fully resolve the issue with Mr. Dusheck. To keep everyone current with what's happening, at this time, we are still trying to resolve this delicate situation privately, respectfully, and professionally. As the CEO of theory11, I do take responsibility, and I am truly sorry.

Please know I've only had pure intent from the beginning. When the situation first came to our attention, we began additional research and I promptly had a handwritten letter sent to Mr. Dusheck approximately four weeks ago in hopes of resolving the matter directly. I have still not received any response to this letter, and thereafter followed up with numerous emails and unsuccessful attempts to reach Mr. Dusheck by phone.

Please understand that it was my intention (and still is) to reach out and resolve the matter directly, privately, and professionally with all parties involved before replying and discussing this on a public forum. It's important for us to make known theory11's position and situation regarding this matter so that a lot of false accusations, rumors, and hearsay are laid to rest.

I work every day to resolve this issue. Chris and I attempted to contact Mr. Dusheck yesterday afternoon with no success. Only after his last post was I made aware of his delicate health issues. This can certainly account for a lack of response. Despite everything, I still truly wish to speak with him directly to express my apologizes for all the mistakes made and to "make good" on the situation.

Again, please understand that it was my intent to resolve this matter privately before coming to the forums. On top of everything, trying to wrangle everyone on my team (artists and staff included) for a full discussion was quite an effort. It took longer than I expected, and I, like everyone else on our team - wanted this to be resolved weeks ago.

Believe me when I say I want to make everything better-than-right for Mr. Dusheck.

Mr. Dusheck, if you're reading this - I am willing to do anything it will take to make this right. If you will please give me five minutes of your time, you'll hear the sincerity in my voice.

Respectfully,

[magicmagicmagic]

Thank you J. Maturity in a new born business is a beautiful thing and I applaud this reaction and decision given the current situation.

[pnmilton]

Bravo Bayme.
I'm sure it'll all work out just fine eventually, the important thing is that you're willing to bend over backwards to fix this. I don't think any of us expected any less from you.
Phil

[duffman]

Finally some good news :)
This should ofcourse have been done ages ago though, but better late than never.

[jimbowmanjr]

Mr. Dusheck, et al,

After exhaustively speaking with everyone here at theory11, I have decided to completely suspend sales of Digital Dissolve until we fully resolve the issue with Mr. Dusheck. To keep everyone current with what's happening, at this time, we are still trying to resolve this delicate situation privately, respectfully, and professionally. As the CEO of theory11, I do take responsibility, and I am truly sorry.

Please know I've only had pure intent from the beginning. When the situation first came to our attention, we began additional research and I promptly had a handwritten letter sent to Mr. Dusheck approximately four weeks ago in hopes of resolving the matter directly. I have still not received any response to this letter, and thereafter followed up with numerous emails and unsuccessful attempts to reach Mr. Dusheck by phone.

Please understand that it was my intention (and still is) to reach out and resolve the matter directly, privately, and professionally with all parties involved before replying and discussing this on a public forum. It's important for us to make known theory11's position and situation regarding this matter so that a lot of false accusations, rumors, and hearsay are laid to rest.

I work every day to resolve this issue. Chris and I attempted to contact Mr. Dusheck yesterday afternoon with no success. Only after his last post was I made aware of his delicate health issues. This can certainly account for a lack of response. Despite everything, I still truly wish to speak with him directly to express my apologizes for all the mistakes made and to "make good" on the situation.

Again, please understand that it was my intent to resolve this matter privately before coming to the forums. On top of everything, trying to wrangle everyone on my team (artists and staff included) for a full discussion was quite an effort. It took longer than I expected, and I, like everyone else on our team - wanted this to be resolved weeks ago.

Believe me when I say I want to make everything better-than-right for Mr. Dusheck.

Mr. Dusheck, if you're reading this - I am willing to do anything it will take to make this right. If you will please give me five minutes of your time, you'll hear the sincerity in my voice.

Respectfully,

Thanks for the update JB. It takes a mighty set to admit you were wrong and you have my personal appreciation for what it is worth because of what you have done to correct this issue, most notably the suspension of selling this product. I am still not happy at the way this product came to be and for how long it was left up for sale after the initial reports came in about the origin of the effect itself. However, I can appreciate the position you found yourself in and I am thankful that you have attempted every effort of getting back on track here. I hope you are able to get in touch with Steve and come to some form of amicable resolution over this issue.

Cheers,

JB

[Howl Black]

can you tell me what the problem is. I am a bit confused. why is DD suspended



thanks
-HB

[magicmagicmagic]

can you tell me what the problem is. I am a bit confused. why is DD suspended



thanks
-HB

Well, there are some pretty strong speculations that the effect is completely stolen. It was created and crafted by an individual well known in the coin magic making industry. The full story is here and in the magic cafe. Short version, he never gave permission to sell his effect, but T11 released it anyways. Now he's pissed, and rightly so... kind of a shaddy move. But they pulled the product, which is the best thing they could have done at this point. If you want the effect it was created by Steve Dusheck and is called copper silver transpo... and its actually much cheaper.

[Howl Black]

i have it already.

[trashmanf]

im actually really impressed by theory 11 finally standing up and admitting responsibilty and pulling the product. putting ethics before $ basically. ALSO im impressed that they admitted the first guardians sucked, and worked at making the 2nd edition better. all in all theory 11 is looking better and better as a company. im still mad that they jacked decknique's media page tho because now we can't post new vids over there.

[elementalconjurer]

ok. i've read a lot of posts about DD and i just want to say one thing to josh barette... through this entre thread you where dissing DD and saying that it didnt deserve its place on teh site due to ethics. then you come out and name all the simmilarities and how you were wrong. THEN you kept on posting!!!. just stop it the point is is that DD does diserve its place on its site and it is deffinitely not the same as something else. it may have the same end result but the handling is different, the mechanics are different. and i'm on T11 side.

[Sleight_of_Hand]

all i can say is LOL to josh barette, u talk too much

[trashmanf]

^ both you guys are what I call "theory 11-year-olds" you're not even reading the thread yet you chime in to say "u talk too much" to that someone that actually CARES about this stuff. this is what sux about t11 forums.

[dummyisdumb]

^ both you guys are what I call "theory 11-year-olds" you're not even reading the thread yet you chime in to say "u talk too much" to that someone that actually CARES about this stuff. this is what sux about t11 forums.

^ This is what I call a Decknique-11 year olds, err...
I'm on your side, but seriously, almost ALL your post has something that disses T11. Now, I'm not a T11 freak but chill a bit.

Post edited by moderator for inappropriate, unprofessional content and conduct.

[MickeyPainless]

All the name calling, back biting and nit picking is not going to solve the problem at hand which is a blatant disregard toward the true creator of this (any) effect!
What is being passed off as Dig. Disolve is a rip off copy of Steve Dusheck's Copper/Silver Transposition plain and simple!
The question now is what is T11 willing to do about it and when!
I for one will not drop this issue until it is either resolved to Mr Dushecks satisfaction or until Steve himself suggests otherwise!
Mick

[trashmanf]

you're a bit late to the party dude they already dropped the product. score one for ethics and integrity.

[MickeyPainless]

I'm well aware that the product has been pulled however they are still advertising it as a T11 product created by BJ Bueno so nothing has been resolved yet!

[The Dark Angel]

I'm well aware that the product has been pulled however they are still advertising it as a T11 product created by BJ Bueno so nothing has been resolved yet!

Where are they doing?

[dummyisdumb]

Awww! They edited my post, hopefully Trashman got to see the "inappropiate and unproffesional" post before it got edited. Oh, and sorry to the mods for that post.

[MickeyPainless]

***Where are they doing?***

Dark Angel,
What are you asking?
Mick

[trashmanf]

hes asking where they are advertising it. ads seem pointless though without the ability to buy the product.

i'm more interested in how this bodes for the future of BJ Bueno as a t11 artist... we'll be watching "his" next release closely ;)

dummy, I dont know if I saw your comment or not... uh, lets just assume I did and get mad. :( grrrrrr!!!!!!

[The Dark Angel]

hes asking where they are advertising it. ads seem pointless though without the ability to buy the product.

i'm more interested in how this bodes for the future of BJ Bueno as a t11 artist... we'll be watching "his" next release closely ;)

dummy, I dont know if I saw your comment or not... uh, lets just assume I did and get mad. :( grrrrrr!!!!!!

***Where are they doing?***

Dark Angel,
What are you asking?
Mick

I was asking where they were advertising the effect still. My bad for leaving out words. :(

[MickeyPainless]

T11 is still advertising it on their products page same as before except that they say it is "Temporarily Unavailable"! Hmmmmmmmmmmm

[podcastrant]

This doesn't look good. This was just posted by Steve Duscheck over at the Cafe.

"...
By the way, the CEO claims he spent a whole day calling me and sent many E-mails that I did not answer. That is not true. It was just lip service as most of you surmised.
He may be the CEO but he has no control on resolving the issue that they copied my trick without my permission. He is not really the man in charge so even if he really did send me an E-mail his words would onlys be words.
..."

It looks like the last post by Bayme was damage control. Any response to this T11?

[joshua barrett]

all i can say is LOL to josh barette, u talk too much

thanks slight_of_hanede, my talking to much informed people of the truth and led to a discussion of this product that involved some of the biggest names in magic.

my talking also was the beginning of it being pulled, while i think and hope that someone else would have started the conversation i took the first inititave and asked a simple question "whats different?"

now i understand you support the stealing of a true genius in magics livelihood for the exchnage of a cool street magic website, but many of us do not. i only hope someday someone rips off either your idea, work, or the way you make a living.

[jimbowmanjr]

In all honesty and with respect to Steve Dusheck, any and all reference to Digital Dissolve should be removed from this site at this point. Leaving a product page up with the "Temporarily Unavailable" is misleading unless you plan to reissue this product without Steve's permission to use his effect and gaff.

Right now this is nothing more than tumor in the heart of things that is threatening to spread to the rest of the body here. Instead of looking at it and wondering if it will spread wouldn't it be wiser to just cut it out now? I would rather see this dealt with swiftly and with a sure hand than see others create their own truths as to what is really going behind the scenes here.

--Jim

[j.bayme]

Just to keep everyone abreast, below is a link (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=227479&forum=202&146&start=120#23) to my message that was posted on the Magic Cafe this morning. I have spoken with Marc Desouza and other mutual acquaintances again this afternoon, and have contacted Steve directly via a different email address for continued discussion privately. Jim, I appreciate your sincerity and thoughts, and all links to the product page on the site have in fact been removed. The only way of getting there at the moment is from Google or by knowing a direct link, and the only reason we've kept the actual product page on the server at all is so people who may have bookmarked it before know that the product is currently suspended until we are able to speak with and resolve the situation directly with Mr. Dusheck.

Will continue to post updates as available, but please understand that I stand by every word posted last week and we are doing everything we know is right in hopes of resolving things swiftly. We understand through mutual acquaintances that his health is not back up to 100%, and nothing is more important than that.

[ArtfulDodger]

and all links to the product page on the site have in fact been removed. The only way of getting there at the moment is from Google or by knowing a direct link

Actually, if you look on the theory 11 main page, scroll down to featured products on the bottom left and the product is still advertised and accessible.

[Jack The Magician]

Actually, if you look on the theory 11 main page, scroll down to featured products on the bottom left and the product is still advertised and accessible.
The "Featured Products" was updated to reflect the change. If you clear your internet cache, you'll see that it's not there -- a digital illusion, if you will. All links to the product page on the site have been removed, as stated above.

Cheers,
JTM

[ArtfulDodger]

I stand corrected - thanks for clearing that up.