YouTube Destroying Magic?

[Aos]

I was watching a magic video on youtube, and one of the links on the side was to some kid performing Garcia's fallen. I look at it once and saw exactly how it's done. What's stopping me from searching for other, INSANELY recently released tricks and seeing more poor performances from which I see how the trick is done? This is a bigger problem than videos which blatantly reveal how tricks are done because those videos usually cover old things. These types of videos however clearly come from kids who bought the DVD THAT DAY and are too eager to practice longer. Please people, I'm begging you, practice the trick until it looks perfect before showing it to anyone. And if you are showing it in video format, go over the video multiple times to make sure that our secrets are safe. If you don't, you are insulting the people who created the trick; it's like a slap in the face. Don't do it.

[vipermagic]

Just ask them nicely to take down the video and give them a reason why they need to practice more.


Luis

[Aos]

Just ask them nicely to take down the video and give them a reason why they need to practice more.

I've done that. The problem is that there are hundreds of similar videos for the same trick with the same tells. There is just no way to stop them all. It's a huge problem with absolutely no solution.

[vipermagic]

I have heard that it is not as big a problem as magicians make it out to be. Unless you perform to people you see everyday then it doesn't matter as much.


Luis

[adjones]

It's not destroying magic. People performing magic like crap is ruining magic.

[Aos]

Yes, and youtube is a _huge_, easily searchable library of poor performances.

[Brad Henderson]

Here is why EVERYONE here should care:

There are a lot of tricks that will NOT be released to the magic community because the creators do not want to see them butchered on youtube.

There are several big problems in magic today:

1) people who publish (DVD or book) other people's work without credit or permission
2) people exposing methods thinking they are "helping magicians" on websites for magicians
3) company's that put out minor variations to try and profit from someone else's ideas
4) botched performances on youtube

Because it seems so many people don't care about the creator's work, because people support those who publish without permission, and because there is no way to ensure that a secret remains anything close to a secret, a lot of performer/creators are rethinking how they want to share their magic. In the past, it may have been sold in a book or DVD. Now, many are choosing not to release commercially OR to sell via a very tight network of trusted buyer/friends.

So, if you value having access to material created by some of the smartest people in magic - then this affect you.

Brad Henderson

[adjones]

I just don't see why people get all worked up over YouTube. I used to, but I've grown out of that now. I realize that a)there's absolutely nothing we can do about it, and b)it has never once actually hurt one of my performances. i.e. Nobody has ever called me out on a performance, saying, "Hey, I saw how you do that on YouTube!". It's just never happened, and I don't ever expect it to.

[..:Z:..]

Here is why EVERYONE here should care:

There are a lot of tricks that will NOT be released to the magic community because the creators do not want to see them butchered on youtube.

There are several big problems in magic today:

1) people who publish (DVD or book) other people's work without credit or permission
2) people exposing methods thinking they are "helping magicians" on websites for magicians
3) company's that put out minor variations to try and profit from someone else's ideas
4) botched performances on youtube

Because it seems so many people don't care about the creator's work, because people support those who publish without permission, and because there is no way to ensure that a secret remains anything close to a secret, a lot of performer/creators are rethinking how they want to share their magic. In the past, it may have been sold in a book or DVD. Now, many are choosing not to release commercially OR to sell via a very tight network of trusted buyer/friends.

So, if you value having access to material created by some of the smartest people in magic - then this affect you.

Brad Henderson

Believe me, I care about exposure, and so does everyone else here (at least, I would think). It hurts. It even hurt me once. But there's nothing WE (the magicians) can do.

So, I suppose you have a solution, though?

..:Z:..

[b.boulton]

This is a huge problem.

About a month ago I put together a PDF and Video to with it.

The bundle contained 6 new card tricks and a new concept of misdirection that I have been working on. I was thinking about submitting it to some of the main stream magic companies like T11, Ellusionist, Murphy's, Precision...but then I thought about it.

Do I really want these effects that are so dear to me out there for those "webcam magicians" to butcher?

I worked hard on these effects...and I perform them regularly, so I consulted with my local magic shop owner on what I should do.

In the end I decided not to release this bundle. I have spent a couple of years working on and perfecting these tricks. I have done everything to try to make them perfect. I ended up just giving the bundle to 2 of my closest magic friends and the shop owner.

I know they aren't gonna screw me over.


Just thought I should share.
-Brad

[Aos]

I just don't see why people get all worked up over YouTube. I used to, but I've grown out of that now. I realize that a)there's absolutely nothing we can do about it, and b)it has never once actually hurt one of my performances. i.e. Nobody has ever called me out on a performance, saying, "Hey, I saw how you do that on YouTube!". It's just never happened, and I don't ever expect it to.

That's an incredibly selfish point of view, which is missing the point.

Believe me, I care about exposure, and so does everyone else here (at least, I would think). It hurts. It even hurt me once. But there's nothing WE (the magicians) can do.

So, I suppose you have a solution, though?

Make as much magicians aware of this as possible, so that their future youtube videos don't flash.
Or you can always create and release only tricks which require triple jointed fingers to perform, so that nobody can do them.

[adjones]

How is my point of view selfish? Because I realize the truth? Like I said, it's never affected me as a performer. As an internet-video-poster, yeah, it may have hurt me, but that doesn't matter. I'm more worried about entertianing my audiences than impressing a bunch of kids on a forum. :rolleyes:

[Aos]

How is my point of view selfish? Because I realize the truth? Like I said, it's never affected me as a performer. As an internet-video-poster, yeah, it may have hurt me, but that doesn't matter. I'm more worried about entertianing my audiences than impressing a bunch of kids on a forum.

I was talking about effect creators. You're not an effect creator. You're being selfish by saying "it's not my problem".
:rolleyes:

[..:Z:..]

That's an incredibly selfish point of view, which is missing the point.

Frankly, Aos, Adjones is right. Whether it was your point or not, who cares. It's just gonna happen and there's nothing we can do.

Make as much magicians aware of this as possible, so that their future youtube videos don't flash.
Or you can always create and release only tricks which require triple jointed fingers to perform, so that nobody can do them.

Are you aware of how many times this subject has been brought up? I take it you have recently just suffered from explotation from a hecker (who saw the secret to your effect on YouTube)?

I'm sure most magicians out here are smart enough to know about the whole YouTube crisis.


..:Z:..'z Comment's in Cyan.

[..:Z:..]

I was talking about effect creators. You're not an effect creator. You're being selfish by saying "it's not my problem".
:rolleyes:

Let's stop shoving words down people's throats now, will we?

By the way, he shouldn't have to care for the creator's misfortune. Believe me, creators know very well about YouTube but why should we have to care? They screwed themselves over. Now we have to lift the burden?

Of course, It's not my problem. It's theirs!

I certainly am not going to get rid of all the Fallen-exposure videos out there. ESPECIALLY if they're gonna charge me 9$ shipping!!! (JK :))

..:Z:..

[I_KnowMagic]

This is a big problem but, as others have mentioned there is nothing you can do about it. As long as its legal its on Youtube. I have thought multiple times about selling my tricks and decided not to for these reasons. However, I am working on an underground site that will sell my tricks but it's hard for those punk youtuber's to find. It will take magic to get to my site! lol. There is also another point you could make that people who make magic tricks over price them. That is why people reveal, because they don't want to pay $30+ for one single trick. So I think there are multiple arguments you could put on this.

[Aos]

Just because it's going to happen doesn't mean there is nothing to be done. Magicians should still be informed. It's not going to stop 100%, but it can be reduced.

You missed, nobody heckled me. I've only released a single video (2 years ago) of me performing and the only negative comments were that my madonna 2 could use more work. And I only did it because it was for a school project.

My inspiration for making this topic was the shock I got from fallen being dumbly revealed to me a few minutes ago.

[SHANE BLACK]

I t looks like our friend Youtube needs to be sleeping with the fishes. :mad:

[Aos]

There is also another point you could make that people who make magic tricks over price them. That is why people reveal, because they don't want to pay $30+ for one single trick.

Good point. I think if I were to create an effect I would want it sold very cheaply so that it's a very easy entry point. And the money would pretty much be a donation for my good work.

[..:Z:..]

Just because it's going to happen doesn't mean there is nothing to be done. Magicians should still be informed. It's not going to stop 100%, but it can be reduced.

Of course, there's always something we can do. But nothing is going to take effect.

I'm not wasting time out of my day to fix a problem that I didn't cause.

Mass-productions and Youtube has perverted what used to be a high level of secretism (is that a word?) that we had.

..:Z:..

[copperfield 14]

I was watching a magic video on youtube, and one of the links on the side was to some kid performing Garcia's fallen. I look at it once and saw exactly how it's done. What's stopping me from searching for other, INSANELY recently released tricks and seeing more poor performances from which I see how the trick is done? This is a bigger problem than videos which blatantly reveal how tricks are done because those videos usually cover old things. These types of videos however clearly come from kids who bought the DVD THAT DAY and are too eager to practice longer. Please people, I'm begging you, practice the trick until it looks perfect before showing it to anyone. And if you are showing it in video format, go over the video multiple times to make sure that our secrets are safe. If you don't, you are insulting the people who created the trick; it's like a slap in the face. Don't do it.

Uhhhh yeah I don't see how this is destroying magic. In my opinion magic has never been better. It would be better if companies stop marketing magic for a high price. Oh and one more thing there is a thread telling people to sign a petition to stop youtube exposure. If you think this is a problem go to the thread and sign.

[ninja]

this is a problem and we need to stop it some how i don't know how but we need to it is a discrace to the art and does hurt preformers.
people work hard making these and some 10 year old kid with a video camera post this crap on the web? These people know that their video is reveiling the trick i mean come on they take the time to put fancy leters in the begining but they don't take time to review the video to see if it truly is good enough to put on the internet they only care about how many views they get.
people do watch these videos even if they aren't into magic especially after they have seen a magic trick all they care about is how it is done soooo they go to YOUTUBE because they know that people reveal this kind of stuff like the other day was preforming for a couple of people in school and the next day one of the kids i preformed to came to me explaining an etire trick i did the other day and asked me if that was how it was done sooooo....I straight up lied to him and said no.
and i am suprised that the people who create these tricks don't do anything about it do they not care and are just in it for the money? or maybe they just haven't seen it or feel they can't do anything when they can!
i don't know we just need to figure out a way to stop it. now

[adjones]

By attacking them, you're just provoking them to do it more, and giving them fuel for their fire. The best thing to do would be just ignore them. Like I said before, it's more than likely not effecting you, so why should you care? It's obviously not hurting hte creators too awful much, as they're not doing anything about it. If you want to stop it, stop talking to kids on forums and starting petitions, and sending messages on YouTube, and flagging videos, and talk to the creators who might actually be able to do something about it.

[Aos]

Of course, there's always something we can do. But nothing is going to take effect.

So we should absolutely give up? No. There are things that can be easily done. For example, if you are a magician and see a flash in a video then inform the creator. That's a very basic thing, but given how much magic videos magicians watch, that's a lot of help right there. Plus, I'm not sure but I don't think it would be offensive to the creator. I don't think any magician wants their videos to contain flashes, so you will be helping them and the magic community in general.

[adjones]

Also, I think it might be helpful if you added a "neither" option to your poll. If it's possible to add other options. That one would definitely get my vote.

[Aos]

If you want to stop it, stop talking to kids on forums...

I think raising awareness is key.

[Aos]

Also, I think it might be helpful if you added a "neither" option to your poll. If it's possible to add other options. That one would definitely get my vote.

if you select both options thats the same as neither, since it neither largely hurts nor largely helps.
but no its not possible to edit.

[Jeff Fitzgerald]

Aos, how many times in performances have you had spectators say "I saw that on YouTube." Answer honestly.

[adjones]

Jeff poses an interesting question. And yes, Aos, raising awareness helps, but we're all already aware of it. Once again... talk to the creators.

[..:Z:..]

So we should absolutely give up? No. There are things that can be easily done. For example, if you are a magician and see a flash in a video then inform the creator. That's a very basic thing, but given how much magic videos magicians watch, that's a lot of help right there. Plus, I'm not sure but I don't think it would be offensive to the creator. I don't think any magician wants their videos to contain flashes, so you will be helping them and the magic community in general.

Ahh, 1 exposure video removed..........999 more to go.....

..:Z:..

[Aos]

Aos, how many times in performances have you had spectators say "I saw that on YouTube." Answer honestly.

Well answer me this Jeff, have you ever had anybody call you on your double lift?
I don't think people will say "I saw that on youtube", even if they did. If they know how they trick is done (regardless where they learned it), and they feel like heckling they will say how it's done. What I was saying is that youtube is a large source of showing people how tricks are done, explicitly or otherwise.

[adjones]

So pretty much YouTube exposure has never hurt your performances. :rolleyes:

[Aos]

Ahh, 1 exposure video removed..........999 more to go......:Z:..

Not removed, ideally redone better. This decreases poor performances on youtube by 1, and increases good performances by 1. A net change of 2. This decreases the chances of somebody running into a poor performance, which is the goal here. And if a lot of magicians do this, and the effect gets doubled in this way, I think it will significantly help.

[Aos]

I was never talking about myself. I was saying that the creators are the ones that suffer, and we suffer through that because they are less likely to release tricks. You guys are the ones who started saying that youtube has never hurt your performances, so don't turn that around on me.


So pretty much YouTube exposure has never hurt your performances. :rolleyes:

The short answer is no, youtube has never directly hurt my performances.
The long answer is maybe, because if they did learn a secret from youtube, why would they source where they got the information from? They would either be unimpressed, or exclaim what I'm actually doing. So anybody who got called on a sleight without flashing it could have been affected by youtube. But everybody who performed magic for a long time has had that experience at some time or another, so it's impossible to tell. It was never my intention to talk about this direct effect, I was talking about the problems it creates for the creators of effects. Because after all, they are the people who drive magic forward.

[SirJonIV]

I'm talking about friends or peers that have seen your magic and look online to watch the explanation. Say they found it. If they know how to do it, fine. But CAN they do it? It takes a lot of skill to perform any trick, and they (mostly not magicians) will not be able to perform that. If they can't do it, why do I care?

That's just my philosophy...

[Jakeh]

I was watching a performance of Sam The Bellhop on YouTube the other day.. it was pretty poor and I found out why it was so: "Sorry if my patter isn't good, I learnt this trick an hour ago." I nearly cried.

But yes, exposure sucks.. poor performances suck.. yeah.

And to answer a question that was asked earlier in this thread, no, I haven't had someone DURING the performance call me out, but it's the aftermath which actually hurts.

[Aos]

If they know how to do it, fine. But CAN they do it? It takes a lot of skill to perform any trick, and they (mostly not magicians) will not be able to perform that. If they can't do it, why do I care?

That's just my philosophy...

Very true. I think like this as well, but it leads to changes. I stay away from simple to perform tricks like fire.

But also this about this. It causes a shift in their experience. If they know how the trick is done, they are no longer amazed by the magic-ness of it. They can only be impressed by your perfect card control. This is fundamentally a different experience, and I would say that a lot of people who want to see magic are not going to enjoy perfect card control.

[princehidalgo]

Youtube is hurting magic....i have one video on there....heres why...i love the McDonalds Aces trick..but never get to perform it in real life..(no close up mat plus its not really a street magic trick)..so i made a video....but these kids get on there and just perform FOR the camera..not for people....youtube is hurting street magic the most..half of the kids dont even leave the house to get out there and approach people and make them laugh and get to know somebody!! I hate to see all of street magic reduced from living life and meeting and amazing new people to web videos shot with crappy webcams and flashing all over the place.

and yes exposure sucks-really really bad

[Tyler Johnson]

Here is why EVERYONE here should care:

There are several big problems in magic today:

My responses will be in red.

1) people who publish (DVD or book) other people's work without credit or permission.

1. I agree with you on this. But, I hate to tell you, it's not against the law. No one can copyright an idea, because it's not something material. Although, to copy someones idea is unethical. But there isn't anything that can be done about this, because it isn't against the law.

2) people exposing methods thinking they are "helping magicians" on websites for magicians

2. I hate how people get all hyped up about magic websites that expose methods. I am part of a so called "exposure website". Why? Because I'm an 18 year old kid, getting ready to go to college, which my parents can't pay for, so I can't be wasting my money on crappy tricks. So I find out the method of a trick lawfully and legally (discussion with other magicians), and if I like the trick I buy it. If it's crappy and something I won't use, I don't use it and don't buy it. Also, people call it an "exposure site", but really it's an online magicians club. I live in a small town, the closest magicians club is three hours away. I can't join it, I don't have any magician friends around me, don't even have a magic shop anywhere close by (3 hours away)! At magicians clubs, or even at magic conferences, if you become a friend with someone they usually teach you a trick and show you something. I've heard some magicians on this forum and others talk about this. How is that any different? Also, since I live so far away from a magicians club, am I just supposed to sit here by myself without any help from experienced magicians, and hope I get a lot better? There's nothing wrong with so called "exposure sites", or as I call them, online magic communities.

3) company's that put out minor variations to try and profit from someone else's ideas

3. (See 1.) Once again, it's not against the law, although I agree with you. And it is also unethical.

4) botched performances on youtube

4. Although it is sad that there are botched performances on YouTube, there isn't anything you can do about it. They bought they trick, they aren't doing anything illegal or unlawful, so they can perform the trick they bought and place the performance on YouTube. You can help several people, I helped one guy. How? I messaged him and kindly suggested somethings to him. It really helped him out and made his performance videos better.



Anyway, that's all I have to say! I can't read all through the rest of the posts. Don't have time, I'm tired and need to get to bed. Peace!

Tyler

[..:Z:..]

Not removed, ideally redone better. This decreases poor performances on youtube by 1, and increases good performances by 1. A net change of 2. This decreases the chances of somebody running into a poor performance, which is the goal here. And if a lot of magicians do this, and the effect gets doubled in this way, I think it will significantly help.

If we can get tons of magicians to (waste) their time by SEARCHING FOR EXPOSURE (Does that sound messed up?) on YouTube, removing them/transforming them, than yah, that could possibly make a difference.

By the way, just because you tell the person to get rid of their video doesn't mean they'll come back with a brand new one that's just sooo perfect.

Sorry to sound so blunt. I'm not trying to bite your head off or anything. It's....Just...How I am.

I was never talking about myself. I was saying that the creators are the ones that suffer, and we suffer through that because they are less likely to release tricks. You guys are the ones who started saying that youtube has never hurt your performances, so don't turn that around on me.

Look, I have found myself some nice books (including the older ones) that NO ONE has ever heard of (not even most magicians!) yet, I am in no way effected by YouTube! So, if your reptoir comprises of mostly Ellusionist or T11 material, then you need to adjust, man.

And, personally, I'm fine with the thousands of tricks that are currently being sold.

The short answer is no, youtube has never directly hurt my performances.
The long answer is maybe, because if they did learn a secret from youtube, why would they source where they got the information from? They would either be unimpressed, or exclaim what I'm actually doing. So anybody who got called on a sleight without flashing it could have been affected by youtube. But everybody who performed magic for a long time has had that experience at some time or another, so it's impossible to tell. It was never my intention to talk about this direct effect, I was talking about the problems it creates for the creators of effects. Because after all, they are the people who drive magic forward.


But also this about this. It causes a shift in their experience. If they know how the trick is done, they are no longer amazed by the magic-ness of it. They can only be impressed by your perfect card control. This is fundamentally a different experience, and I would say that a lot of people who want to see magic are not going to enjoy perfect card control.

Look, we COMPLETELY understand the devastating effects that YouTube can randomly deliver. You don't need to elaborate on WHAT the negative side-effects are.

As much as I want to delete ALL of the exposure, that's just simple not going to happen! The only methods we can use are much too time consuming and therefore, aren't very practical at all! But don't start calling people selfish just because they don't want to waste THEIR time on... Well, you know.

..:Z:..

[..:Z:..]

Also, people call it an "exposure site", but really it's an online magicians club.
Dude, you've got to be kidding, right?

I've been to one of the most notorious (I don't know how many are out there) expose-sites to visit there forums.

Oh my god.

There were soooooooo many noobs there that didn't know CRAP about magic!!! The only thing they do is humor each other with secrets, video tutorials, and rants on Ellusionist.

You call that a magic club? More like a mockery-guild.

..:Z:..

[Brad Henderson]

Tyler sums it up.

He feels because he does not have the money, he should be entitled to learn everything he wants, and then decide if it was worth it to him. Now, this may be fine when it comes to buying TV's, but magic is different.

When you have invested nothing in learning magic, you have no reason to respect or protect it. After all, if you got it for free - why should you care if someone else does as well.

One of the first things we can start doing is standing up when people choose to steal products by downloading them illegally. I know this is a hot topic, but let's face it - if you put something on a peer to peer, and someone gets it for free, can you really be surprised when they choose not to respect it in any form?

Second, we can't hide behind the "well, it's not illegal" excuse. Lot's of things are not illegal, but that doesn't mean that are not wrong. We, as a community, should not support companies and "creators" when they release products that are ethically suspect.

Now, most people won't do this because 1) we have this mentality that if the person is a "nice guy" they can get away with anything and 2) people are greedy - they want to cool trick and they don't care who got screwed as long as they get it

Third, we need to hold other people's creations and work in higher regard. That includes being careful of what we share on the internet. I know we all have an interest in magic, but we need to be sure that the people who are asking are serious and ready for that information. I'm not suggesting we cut off all information, but I think we can choose to be respectful of other's work when we decide to talk about it. And these "online communities" Tyler likes to call his exposure sites don't care who comes to learn - it can be a serious magician, or someone from your high school who just wants to try and figure out your tricks. They don't care. If you support them, you're saying YOU don't care.

If you've created something and want to share it - that's fine. But when you start telling other people's secrets - then you have done them a great disservice and I cannot hold any respect for that behavior.

Finally, what can we do? Well, it's happening. There are some great tricks that are being sold person to person - never advertised - and for very high prices. That way the creator knows who got them, and knows that they have invested enough to protect what they bought.

The down side, for many, means that a lot of people - people like Tyler, will never know these amazing pieces of magic exist, let alone be able to perform them. It's what creators have to do now that they know the community will not stand up for them, that they rationalize getting their information for free rather than paying the person who may have spent years of their life creating something beautiful.

Like I said, when that happens, lots of people lose out.

Brad Henderson

[Aos]

If we can get tons of magicians to (waste) their time by SEARCHING FOR EXPOSURE

I never said that. I said if you happen to see some.

By the way, just because you tell the person to get rid of their video doesn't mean they'll come back with a brand new one that's just sooo perfect.

I never said that. _You_ kept saying "remove them", I was saying improve them.

I'm new to this site, how is the media section handled? Do you quickly get told if you flashed or what?

[shinichikudo992000]

the only thing Ellusionist and Theory11 can do now is contact YouTube and sue the people who exposing their maigic or delete their profile. That will solve the problem of youtube exposing magic.

about poor performance, it's up to the uploader, they have to be ashame of them self for uploading something like crap.

[..:Z:..]

I never said that. I said if you happen to see some.

If we remove videos as we spot them, then our progression is going to be sloooooooow.

I never said that. _You_ kept saying "remove them", I was saying improve them.

You can only improve a video by putting a better one in it's place, am I wrong?

I'm new to this site, how is the media section handled? Do you quickly get told if you flashed or what?

Your point?

..:Z:..'z Comments in Cyan.

[..:Z:..]

the only thing Ellusionist and Theory11 can do now is contact YouTube and sue the people who exposing their maigic or delete their profile. That will solve the problem of youtube exposing magic.

about poor performance, it's up to the uploader, they have to be ashame of them self for uploading something like crap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_rights_to_magic_methods

..:Z:..

[Aos]

You can only improve a video by putting a better one in it's place, am I wrong?

It's the tone thats the problem. Saying "please remove your video" is harsher than saying "please redo your video because you flashed". They key here is telling them that they flashed. I think most magicians would remove the video if they knew that.

Your point?

Why are you so cynical? I was really asking how the media section is handled. It wasn't a rhetorical question.

[..:Z:..]

It's the tone thats the problem. Saying "please remove your video" is harsher than saying "please redo your video because you flashed". They key here is telling them that they flashed. I think most magicians would remove the video if they knew that.

I have written a couple of really decent posts on how to remove You(N)oob videos tactifully.

Why are you so cynical? I was really asking how the media section is handled. It wasn't a rhetorical question.

I'm sorry if you detected some animosity.

Well, If you do flash, the members (who most of them are magicians) will usually give you a tip or discuss with you your problem, privately.



..:Z:..'z Comments in Cyan.

[AllanLuu]

I don't really think you can say youtube itself is destroying magic, it is the little 10 year old kids destroying it. Youtube has some pretty cool stuff on there like people who can actually perform.

[Aos]

I don't really think you can say youtube itself is destroying magic, it is the little 10 year old kids destroying it. Youtube has some pretty cool stuff on there like people who can actually perform.

I thought that goes without saying.

[copperfield 14]

them.

I'm new to this site, how is the media section handled? Do you quickly get told if you flashed or what?

The videos are checked and only the best pass. Usually there isn't any sign of flashing.

[Ashrei]

People have been saying that YouTube is destroying magic for couple pages and now the topic changed to we should do something vs. there is nothing we can do...

In my opinion... YouTube helped me quite a bit. Not by exposing me a lot of methods, but by allowing me to see a lot of performances. I like invisible palm, and I only have one magician friend who lives 2 hours away who I have not seen in 2 years. So I have no one really to show my invisible palm to before I perform. So what I did was looked around YouTube, saw what I liked and saw what I didn't like. I was able to watch so many awesome performances, it helped me how to enhance my own performance. Frankly, invisible palm wasn't the only trick that I profitted from, but it's just one example. So here's my take in it. Yes, exposures suck, but you have to realize, you can vastly learn more by watching other people's performances. I mean, not all of us has 1000 bucks a day to spend and 16 hours of free time to go around and watch someone else's performances. YouTube has granted us that, and I think that's actually helping magic. So personally, I think YouTube is helping magic.

P.S. do not worry about exposure too much, since not everyone really knows the name of the trick, so as long as you don't tell them the name of the trick, they really shouldn't be able to find the trick (at least not without spending hours on it and if someone does that, he or she has no life, so what can you do but to ignore that person?)

[Aris.SA]

nothing new..

[The Dark Angel]

Very interesting opinions and beliefs being discussed in here...

This has been discussed several times before, however it is always nice to get some fresh views and opinions by different members. One of my personal favorite threads on the matter is this (http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=3076&page=1) thread/mini-essay by BlueBackedBikes, just don't bump it. ;)

Keep on keeping on,
TDA

[guiguimanu]

I havent read this whole thread, its pretty long.

just wanted to state that i do agree that youtube hurts magic, and whoever goes on youtube to learn tricks either doesnt know that it hurts magic or are stingy and dont know what its like to create something.

Iam all for people who film themselves peforming an effect and post it on youtube, as long as it can be seen they practiced well and the secret of trick itself is not exposed in the video. But I am talking about stoping youtube exposure not about stoping peoples peformances from being posted.

I have posted a similar thread in the past and it was ignored. But i was thinking over time and i found a solution to the youtube problem:

STOP MAKING VIDEO tutorials.

just make books. People who expose are children, i would asume their ages range from 8- 16 , nowadays kids dont read, with this whole mtv generation nobody reads anymore, make it so that if someone truly wants to get into magic, its time for them to pick up a book! Also i noticed many people argue that tricks are too expensive, books tend to be cheeper, this would solve this problem as well, I have always learnt way more from a $10 book than a $30 DVD.

I understand some people dont like learning tricks from books, they have trouble visualizing the effect, all i can say to that is reading is a skill but one which is worth acquiring.

sorry if something similar has been said i just wanted to let people know of my idea.

[Jakeh]

I havent read this whole thread, its pretty long.

just wanted to state that i do agree that youtube hurts magic, and whoever goes on youtube to learn tricks either doesnt know that it hurts magic or are stingy and dont know what its like to create something.

Iam all for people who film themselves peforming an effect and post it on youtube, as long as it can be seen they practiced well and the secret of trick itself is not exposed in the video. But I am talking about stoping youtube exposure not about stoping peoples peformances from being posted.

I have posted a similar thread in the past and it was ignored. But i was thinking over time and i found a solution to the youtube problem:

STOP MAKING VIDEO tutorials.

just make books. People who expose are children, i would asume their ages range from 8- 16 , nowadays kids dont read, with this whole mtv generation nobody reads anymore, make it so that if someone truly wants to get into magic, its time for them to pick up a book! Also i noticed many people argue that tricks are too expensive, books tend to be cheeper, this would solve this problem as well, I have always learnt way more from a $10 book than a $30 DVD.

I understand some people dont like learning tricks from books, they have trouble visualizing the effect, all i can say to that is reading is a skill but one which is worth acquiring.

sorry if something similar has been said i just wanted to let people know of my idea.

As a visual learner, that'd make things harder for me and probably a few others. But I do have to agree. I love to read and I'm sure reading about magic would be quite awesome too and considering there would be absolutely no other sources, we'd all get used to it eventually.

[Tyler Johnson]

Tyler sums it up.

He feels because he does not have the money, he should be entitled to learn everything he wants, and then decide if it was worth it to him. Now, this may be fine when it comes to buying TV's, but magic is different.

When you have invested nothing in learning magic, you have no reason to respect or protect it. After all, if you got it for free - why should you care if someone else does as well.

One of the first things we can start doing is standing up when people choose to steal products by downloading them illegally. I know this is a hot topic, but let's face it - if you put something on a peer to peer, and someone gets it for free, can you really be surprised when they choose not to respect it in any form?

Please, please, please, actually read my initial post. First, I DO NOT DOWNLOAD DVDS ILLEGALLY. I DO NOT CONDONE THE ILLEGAL DOWNLOAD OF DVDS OR SONGS OR ANYTHING OF ANY SORT. I find out the method of a trick, and if it isn't a rip off, and if it's practical, and if it's something I'll use, because I respect the artist, I WILL BUY IT. There are many reasons for doing this. Because I respect the artist, and also because I want the teaching. I want to hear what they have to say about performance and the subtitles they teach about whatever trick it is they're teaching. And if you're saying I don't respect the art form, then retract that statement immediately. Not only do I respect the art form, but am pretty well respected in the art form. I'm friends with magicians such as Justin Miller. (view my website) So, please take that statement back ASAP, cause it's far from the truth.

Second, we can't hide behind the "well, it's not illegal" excuse. Lot's of things are not illegal, but that doesn't mean that are not wrong. We, as a community, should not support companies and "creators" when they release products that are ethically suspect.

Once again, please read my initial post. I AGREED WITH YOU. It is wrong and it is unethical. But there isn't anything, as far as the law goes, that we can do about it. All we can do is stop buying from these companies that copy other companies or artists effects. I was just merely saying that you can't copyright an idea, so what they are doing isn't against the law, so we can't take them down that way.

Now, most people won't do this because 1) we have this mentality that if the person is a "nice guy" they can get away with anything and 2) people are greedy - they want to cool trick and they don't care who got screwed as long as they get it

If you are referencing me, then I'm referencing paragraph one.

Third, we need to hold other people's creations and work in higher regard. That includes being careful of what we share on the internet. I know we all have an interest in magic, but we need to be sure that the people who are asking are serious and ready for that information. I'm not suggesting we cut off all information, but I think we can choose to be respectful of other's work when we decide to talk about it. And these "online communities" Tyler likes to call his exposure sites don't care who comes to learn - it can be a serious magician, or someone from your high school who just wants to try and figure out your tricks. They don't care. If you support them, you're saying YOU don't care.

Let me start off by saying that I DO NOT condone wide open online magic communities that do not put magicians through a screening process. PUBLIC EXPOSURE FORUMS ARE WRONG! The forum I am a part of only consists of 40 members, highly skilled members. In order to join you must first pass a test before you can even register. It's a 10 question test with questions such as "What is an Erdnase Shift?", and so forth. After this, if people have passed, they must post an introduction telling all the members why they love magic, how they got started out in magic, what kind of magic they like, and what their favorite effect is. I can also vouch for 90% of the forum when I say that they do the same thing I do. If a trick is a rip-off, then no one buys it or uses it. Why would you use something crappy? But, if a trick is good, practical, and something that will be used, it is then bought. Even though I do not condone forums that are open to the public or easily accessible, I think online magician communities are acceptable. I don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

If you've created something and want to share it - that's fine. But when you start telling other people's secrets - then you have done them a great disservice and I cannot hold any respect for that behavior.

Finally, what can we do? Well, it's happening. There are some great tricks that are being sold person to person - never advertised - and for very high prices. That way the creator knows who got them, and knows that they have invested enough to protect what they bought.

The down side, for many, means that a lot of people - people like Tyler, will never know these amazing pieces of magic exist, let alone be able to perform them. It's what creators have to do now that they know the community will not stand up for them, that they rationalize getting their information for free rather than paying the person who may have spent years of their life creating something beautiful.

LOL Like me? Like I said before, I'm well respected in the magic community. I knew about "Holy Grail" from Jordan before you or anyone else (except for a few people), knew it was even going to be released. He actually sent me the test videos of the trick so I could give him my opinion. He knows I'm part of the online magic community, yet he knows how I work and had no problem telling me how the trick was accomplished so I could tell him whether it was practical or not. I actually know about a trick right now that you and most of you don't even know about. So, I find that paragraph extremely humorous! :D

Like I said, when that happens, lots of people lose out.

Seems your losing out more than me. Shame, eh?

Here's a great quote I forgot I made...

"Online magic communities are like guns, it depends on how you use them. If you use them to steal the effects from artists, it's bad. If you use it for good, like I do, then online magic communities are good."

Also, I have some questions I would like to see if anyone can answer. Don't you have conventions with magicians? Don't you have a magician buddy who you practice with? Don't you show each other things? How is that any different? I'm doing the same thing, just securely online, because I don't live anywhere near other magicians. Cause, if we took your view, then magicians shouldn't have friend magicians and they should never talk to each other. In fact, lets just shut down the theory11 forums because we should never talk together again!

Just so everyone knows, I'll list tricks I use that I have bought.

Tricks I use:
-TiVo 2.0 (I bought the Trilogy)
-The Queens (I bought the Trilogy)
-dilemma! (my own trick)
-Subway (I bought the Trilogy)
-Cameo Phase 1 & 2 (I bought ONE when it came out)
-Card Clock Mentalism (got it from a book I borrowed from the library)
-My Own Turned Over Card in Deck
-My Own Ace trick I haven't named

I hope you will rethink your position and understand that you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I agree with you on some points, and on some I disagree. Peace!

Tyler

[Frodo]

Everytime I see these videos being done I just want to reach through the screen and slap them. Not only does it give the secret away to layman who could possibly come back to school or work and tell everyone how it was done but then it pisses everyone who paid for it off.

[..:Z:..]

I find out the method of a trick, and if it isn't a rip off, and if it's practical, and if it's something I'll use, because I respect the artist, I WILL BUY IT.

Isn't figuring out the trick unethical? Isn't putting effort into discovering the actual method unethical especially for magicians?

There are many reasons for doing this. Because I respect the artist, and also because I want the teaching. I want to hear what they have to say about performance and the subtitles they teach about whatever trick it is they're teaching.

Artists aren't going to respect you back when you use your method of purchasing magic.

The METHOD is the whole SECRET of the effect which you PURCHASE if you like the EFFECT, not the METHOD. You trying to figure out the secretmand THEN deciding whether you want to buy it.... Well, if everyone did that, we'd have a lot less customers (I would think).

And if you're saying I don't respect the art form, then retract that statement immediately. Not only do I respect the art form, but am pretty well respected in the art form. I'm friends with magicians such as Justin Miller. (view my website) So, please take that statement back ASAP, cause it's far from the truth.

Yah, I talked to Justin, too. For like, 2 hours ar o' Dark hundred in the morning. He's a cool guy. He even taught me a few things about coins.

Once again, please read my initial post. I AGREED WITH YOU. It is wrong and it is unethical. But there isn't anything, as far as the law goes, that we can do about it. All we can do is stop buying from these companies that copy other companies or artists effects. I was just merely saying that you can't copyright an idea, so what they are doing isn't against the law, so we can't take them down that way.

If you agree it's so unethical, like you said, then why are you using your purchasing-method? Seems a bit hypocritical, don't ya' think?

Let me start off by saying that I DO NOT condone wide open online magic communities that do not put magicians through a screening process.
I agree, we need gatekeepers like we used to have.

PUBLIC EXPOSURE FORUMS ARE WRONG!

HAHAHAH. That's really funny because earlier you said this:

I am part of a so called "exposure website".

...LoL.

The forum I am a part of only consists of 40 members, highly skilled members(?). In order to join you must first pass a test before you can even register. It's a 10 question test with questions such as "What is an Erdnase Shift?", and so forth. After this, if people have passed, they must post an introduction telling all the members why they love magic, how they got started out in magic, what kind of magic they like, and what their favorite effect is.

Why would highly skilled members be using your method for purchasing magic tricks?

I have yet to see a highly skilled member do THAT.

I can also vouch for 90% of the forum when I say that they do the same thing I do.

Oh great.... That's reassuring....

If a trick is a rip-off, then no one buys it or uses it. Why would you use something crappy? But, if a trick is good, practical, and something that will be used, it is then bought.

Ummm, Tylor, WHY are you trying to figure out the method? Because the like the effect soooo much. That's why. So, isn't that a good trick if your being driven to research the method?

Here's a great quote I forgot I made...

"Online magic communities are like guns, it depends on how you use them. If you use them to steal the effects from artists, it's bad. If you use it for good, like I do, then online magic communities are good."

I think there's a reason why you forgot :p.

Also, I have some questions I would like to see if anyone can answer. Don't you have conventions with magicians? No. Don't you have a magician buddy who you practice with? Yes. Don't you show each other things? Rarerly. How is that any different? I KNOW who I'm "jamming" with. I'm doing the same thing, just securely online, because I don't live anywhere near other magicians. Cause, if we took your view, then magicians shouldn't have friend magicians and they should never talk to each other. In fact, lets just shut down the theory11 forums because we should never talk together again!

It's okay to talk about secret-magician-things from one magician to another, but it's not okay to just blatantly reveal information to other strangers (who are You(N)oobs).

I hope you will rethink your position and understand that you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I agree with you on some points, and on some I disagree. Peace!

Tyler

..:Z:..'z Comments in Cyan

[Aos]

Personally I like to figure out the method, but that's just how I operate. I've always been fascinated with the way things work, and magic is no exception. Are you really expecting people to actively refuse to think about how an effect is achievable?

[..:Z:..]

Personally I like to figure out the method, but that's just how I operate. I've always been fascinated with the way things work, and magic is no exception. Are you really expecting people to actively refuse to think about how an effect is achievable?

Curiosity is a valid excuse now?

Of course they're going to be thinking about the method. It's called the Magician's Eye! Or whatever.... But if you have to go to YouTube to figure out the method..............

...:Z:..

[Brad Henderson]

Tyler,

I was responding to people who asked what we could do about the situation. Now, if you happened to think I was talking to/accusing you of those things - well, "me thinks thou dost protest too much."

There are only two things I specifically reference about your statement:

1) Your sense of entitlement to know the methods of magic effects without paying for them
2) your rationalization of these den of thieves as an "online magic community"

The rest was what you choose to read into it. (They are however real issues that have lead to the position we have today, and without addressing them, nothing will change.)

As to your rarefied position in our art - being friend's with Miller and knowing about a little trick that's yet to come to market - I wish you happiness in the goldfish bowl. Perhaps someday you will come visit us in the sea.

Brad Henderson

[Tyler Johnson]

Isn't figuring out the trick unethical? Isn't putting effort into discovering the actual method unethical especially for magicians?

Isn't putting something that's impractical, hyping it up, and deceiving other magicians (hard working people), out of their money unethical? Yet lots of magic websites do it everyday.

Artists aren't going to respect you back when you use your method of purchasing magic.

Okay, great. I don't respect artists that sell junk either. Artists that use camera tricks, hype things up, or use a million gimmicks that aren't pratical.

The METHOD is the whole SECRET of the effect which you PURCHASE if you like the EFFECT, not the METHOD. You trying to figure out the secretmand THEN deciding whether you want to buy it.... Well, if everyone did that, we'd have a lot less customers (I would think).

Yes, we'd have a lot less customers buying useless junk. Face it, if you like the look of an effect, you still don't know what you're getting into if you buy it. Then you get it and it sucks! You've just wasted $30 (which is a lot for me considering I'm saving for college), and you can't get it back. Let me rephrase one of my statements, BECAUSE I RESPECT GOOD WORK FROM ARTISTS, THEN I BUY IT.

Yah, I talked to Justin, too. For like, 2 hours ar o' Dark hundred in the morning. He's a cool guy. He even taught me a few things about coins.

Well, great. But he didn't tell you he thought your magic was "genius".

If you agree it's so unethical, like you said, then why are you using your purchasing-method? Seems a bit hypocritical, don't ya' think?

I don't get where it's hypocritical. They are making money off of selling other artists effects. I'm paying artists who's work I like and want to use.

I agree, we need gatekeepers like we used to have.

Well, at least we agree on something.

HAHAHAH. That's really funny because earlier you said this:

I am part of a so called "exposure website".

Notice the words "so called". That's what you call it, not me. Also, the online community of magicians that I am a part of is guarded well.

highly skilled members(?).Why would highly skilled members be using your method for purchasing magic tricks?

They are highly skilled because instead of buying a bunch of crap, they've bought good, quality material and have had enough money to buy lots more.

I have yet to see a highly skilled member do THAT.

Guess you haven't seen many highly skilled members then.

Oh great.... That's reassuring....

Great reply. *sarcasm*

Ummm, Tylor, WHY are you trying to figure out the method? Because the like the effect soooo much. That's why. So, isn't that a good trick if your being driven to research the method?

Ummm...maybe because somethings look better on camera than in real life and I'm not a cam magician. Maybe somethings use tons of gimmicks and looks cool, but you don't know it. Maybe something has horrible angles and can't be used in public, but you don't know it. Prime example, the Snap Change. It's an awesome looking change on camera, but in person the angles are horrible. Can still pull it off, but horrible angles.

I think there's a reason why you forgot.

Hahaha, we have a funny man. (lol)

Don't you have conventions with magicians? No. Don't you have a magician buddy who you practice with? Yes. Don't you show each other things? Rarerly. How is that any different? I KNOW who I'm "jamming" with.

Yep, and on the forum I'm a part of, we have webcam conferences, so I KNOW who I'm "jamming" with too. We just live farther away from each other than you and your "magic buddies".

It's okay to talk about secret-magician-things from one magician to another, but it's not okay to just blatantly reveal information to other strangers (who are You(N)oobs).

Reference my last paragraph. Also, calling me a noob is hardly mature. Come on, what are you? Ten? You know nothing about me or my magic.

Tyler

[Tyler Johnson]

I was responding to people who asked what we could do about the situation. Now, if you happened to think I was talking to/accusing you of those things - well, "me thinks thou dost protest too much."

I'm sorry I thought you were responding to me. Although you did begin with the words, "Tyler sums it up.", which would mean I sum up everything you said. Also, I didn't ever protest. I just discussed. "Me thinks you not think enough."

The rest was what you choose to read into it. (They are however real issues that have lead to the position we have today, and without addressing them, nothing will change.)

Well, there's what you said, what you meant, and what I thought you meant. But, I brought up the issues and still, you haven't responded.

As to your rarefied position in our art - being friend's with Miller and knowing about a little trick that's yet to come to market - I wish you happiness in the goldfish bowl. Perhaps someday you will come visit us in the sea.

I never said my position is rarefied, you're reading into it. And, your comment was preposterous. FIRST, you don't know me. SECOND, you haven't seen my magic. And THIRD, I wish you the best in your magic although I find your sarcasm and "hidden" jabs immature.

I will no longer be replying to this thread, as people cannot have a discussion without personal attacks. Instead of discussing something like adults, discussion was handled differently. Good-bye, good night, and peace.

Tyler

[Brad Henderson]

Your sense of entitlement sums up the problem we face today.

That sense manifests in many other ways - ways I enumerated. (I did not mean to imply that you engaged in those practices - and I am sorry if you took it that way. However I DO believe these practices stem from the same attitude which you typify.)

Finally, when you decided to pat yourself on the back in regard to your "inside track" you opened that up for discussion. It was not a jab, only a reminder that the world is sometimes a lot bigger than we think it is.

Best,

Brad Henderson

[Aos]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c340/Asparagus_Man/flamewar.jpg

Play along people, no need to get testy.

[Brad Henderson]

No flaming.

These are important issues and Tyler's attitude is shared by many people - and this attitude has led to the situation we find ourselves in today. What I hope to accomplish is let people know how this attitude (and how it manifests) affects the creators and in turn affects them. While Tyler may feel he is on an inside loop, I think it is important for him to realize that the world of magic looks different depending on where you are standing. Standing next to Justin Miller provides one view. I assure you, there are others.

Should he be happy with his attitude and his view (which he seemed to imply was a perfectly fine final destination), then there is nothing further to consider. But for those who would like to consider the big picture, for those who know that there is far more to the world of magic than that sold in tidy bundles and hawked at lectures, then hopefully my words will give them some avenues to explore.

Brad Henderson

[Tyler Johnson]

I don’t know why, but as each year passes there seems to be a more mean-spirited attitude within the magic community.

MAGIC magazine has a brand new reviewer by the name of Brad Henderson. In his debut review, he puts forth a review that oozes the most mean-spiritedness achievable. The review was brutal towards Kenton Knepper first and foremost, as well as his booklet “Miraculous Ploys”.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. And clearly, he didn’t like the booklet. However, he takes up two pages in MAGIC to both slam and piss on Kenton.

Before we go further, let me state that I have NOT read Kenton’s booklet. You don’t need to, to clearly see the malicious attack on Mr. Knepper.

A colleague on the west coast brought the review to my attention. My colleague actually doesn’t like Kenton’s works. Strangely, he was appalled by the review and sent it along to me via fax and wondered if I knew whom this Brad Henderson (expletive) was.

I must confess, when I first read it I was utterly shocked. SHOCKED. I could not believe how overwhelmingly nasty the review clearly was.

Upon second reading, I laughed. Let me explain.

Mr. Henderson starts off with a disclaimer that the review “is not based on personal feelings. I have met Kenton, and I thought he was a pleasant human being. Unfortunately, I found this work offensive for several reasons”.

Mr. Henderson then begins a paragraph-by-paragraph attack on the book, it’s writer, his thoughts, his routines and calls him a liar.

Sidebar:You know what would be fun? At the next big magician convention put Mr. Knepper and Mr. Henderson on a platform face-to-face and have Mr. Henderson read that review out loud. Charge admission for it and use the funds for a cosmetic dental surgeon’s costs to fix Mr. Henderson’s teeth at the end.

Mr. Henderson portrays himself (indirectly) as an expert on Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) and discounts Mr. Kneppers work with the earth-shattering revelation that the “concepts were not original to him”. Wow. Thanks for that one.

Mr. Henderson further betrays his lack of knowledge with this (hilarious) incorrect comparison: “Wonder Words is to NLP what Dave Dee is to Jay Abraham and other marketing programs.”

That was killer. I laughed out loud at that one. You see, Dave Dee has chosen to idolize and model marketing guru Dan Kennedy. While I’m confident that Mr. Dee IS familiar with Jay Abraham, using that particular analogy betrays his “knowledge” of what he’s talking about. Anyone—and I mean ANYONE—with a remote knowledge of marketing would see that clearly.

Without going back and listening to Mr. Kneppers Wonder Words tapes, I do recall him crediting NLP as well as the use of the term “linguistic deception.” Mr. Henderson puts down Mr. Knepper on the one hand yet credits him for bringing “this material” available to the community.

I do agree with Mr. Henderson that Mr. Knepper is claiming credit for bringing it into our magical community. And I do agree that he’s using established techniques. No question about it.

Although I have not seen Mr. Henderson perform, he is allegedly a skilled close-up magician and I’m willing to bet that he uses established methods to accomplish his tasks. I’m sure that if he has invented any new “moves”, they could also be traced historically prior to his creation.

Mr. Henderson claims Mr. Knepper is not a pioneer, yet Mr. Knepper was the first to bring this stuff to our community. First. And first would be… pioneering?

The “review” is littered with insults such as…

“…one of the most manipulative little pamphlets I have ever read.”

“… every other word is I..”

“…Good God, shoot me now.”

“…Nothing new. Just an overly scripted presentation.”

…and more.

I won’t detail the blow-by-blow insults that Mr. Henderson throws at Mr. Knepper. You can read them yourself. He rips apart basically every trick in the booklet (with a lovely backhanded insult in one form or another)

What’s my point? Easy.

This attack on Mr. Knepper is uncalled for. Indeed, I’m disappointed that the editors of MAGIC published that and I believe it tarnishes the excellent image of the magazine. If they paid him for it, they should get a refund.

If Mr. Henderson doesn’t like the booklet, fine. Quite frankly, I find that far too many reviews these days are over-hyped and over-positive. A negative review is fine. But not one littered with insults and degrading comments.

Clearly, Mr. Henderson’s biases spill over the cup, over the counter and into your lap. He has an axe to grind. And grind it he does.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I have noticed when Mr. Henderson is critiqued in any way, he immediately goes on an extreme defensive.

A simple stroll through the mental-list forum for “mindman” posts will reveal a consistent condescending attitude by Mr. Henderson. Other forums reveal the same.

Generally speaking, this attitude is prevalent in people who have inferiority complexes. People who need to put others down in order to look good. It’s sad. Very sad.

Let me wrap up this commentary by answering a few questions you may have in your mind.

1. I don’t know Mr. Knepper, have never spoken with him and I didn’t find anything in Wonder Words that I was able to use. This isn’t about Mr. Knepper or his book. It’s about negative attitude reviewers.
2. I don’t know Mr. Henderson, other than his prolific postings on various forums, including mine.
3. Mr. Henderson claims that he has received positive responses from his first review. Truthfully, I have not seen any. I have, however, spoken with quite a few who feel the same as I do.

I hope that someday there will be a return of balanced reviews that focus on the matter at hand. And, I hope that MAGIC fires Mr. Henderson and hires someone knowledgeable.
Taken From Mental-list.com by Stuart Cumberland

Wanted to see who you were to say your in the "sea" of magic. Real respect you have for magicians there pal. Now I see where the undertones of sarcasm come from, if that article is about you. If it isn't, I apologize. Peace!

Tyler

[Jeff Fitzgerald]

Well answer me this Jeff, have you ever had anybody call you on your double lift?

Once, when my double split.


I don't think people will say "I saw that on youtube", even if they did.

Then what's the problem? And you never answered my question.

[Brad Henderson]

I will no longer be replying to this thread, as people cannot have a discussion without personal attacks. Instead of discussing something like adults, discussion was handled differently. Good-bye, good night, and peace.

Tyler

Promises, promises.

Yes, Stuart was very upset that I denigrated one of his marketing heroes, Dan Kennedy. While he is fully entitled to his opinion of me, and of my opinions, but someone misrepresents what another wrote - that is the refuge of the very sad.

I am that Brad Henderson. I have been reviewing for Magic Magazine since Michael Close left. Kenton's review is hardly the most cutting I have written. You should check out my reviews of Dan Army's Trespass, and most recently, the feature story on Phenomenon as carried by Genii Magazine.

The book Blair Robertson refers to was awful. I stand by every single word I have written, and should you some day decide to read that book, we can share a lively debate over it's contents.

But Tyler, it seems to me that of anyone YOU should be PRAISING ME. You say that you don't have money to waste on bad products. You say you go to exposure sites to protect yourself from throwing cash away....Well, I did a very thorough job in that review of telling you why each of those tricks were bad. I covered the tactics used by Knepper to try and convince people that these half developed ideas were works of art. I provided the service you claim you go to the exposure sites for - without exposing anything!!!

I thought that was what you wanted, Tyler?

Or is it just the secrets?

Brad Henderson

[dejavu05]

Personally I think that it is kind of helping and hurting magic. I think that it is helping because think of all the kids that get interested in magic because they learned a trick online. I also think that it is hurting magic because think of the times that people know your tricks because they learned it on YouTube. I think that this is really a preference of if you want to spread magic to more people (like more people learning it) or people to stop doing magic and not have that many people.

[..:Z:..]

Isn't putting something that's impractical, hyping it up, and deceiving other magicians (hard working people), out of their money unethical? Yet lots of magic websites do it everyday.

Wow, then your apperently searching in the wrong places.

I trust sites like T11, E (well, idk about that one), Penguin, Lybrary, etc, for good quality magic. You must've been lurking in those other half-baked sites.

Okay, great. I don't respect artists that sell junk either. Artists that use camera tricks, hype things up, or use a million gimmicks that aren't pratical.

You buying stuff from Criss Angel? That'll happen.

Yes, we'd have a lot less customers buying useless junk. Face it, if you like the look of an effect, you still don't know what you're getting into if you buy it. Then you get it and it sucks! You've just wasted $30 (which is a lot for me considering I'm saving for college), and you can't get it back. Let me rephrase one of my statements, BECAUSE I RESPECT GOOD WORK FROM ARTISTS, THEN I BUY IT.

It all comes down to the EFFECT, not the method. If you like the EFFECT and if your happy with the REVIEWS of the other BUYERS, than why not purchase it?

It sounds like your being really picky with what you want and I guess that's understandable to a certain extent. But seriosuly, why not read the reviews and do some research?

Well, great. But he didn't tell you he thought your magic was "genius".

I like it how you just "assumed" that he didn't say my magic was "genius."

Actually, I didn't show him any magic. It was my microphone and his webcam. He DID actually shoe me some of the effects he's considering releasing. Did you?

You obviosuly didn't explain to Justin your purchasing method so...


Notice the words "so called". That's what you call it, not me. Also, the online community of magicians that I am a part of is guarded well.

Guarded well against the real magicians, you mean :p

They are highly skilled because instead of buying a bunch of crap, they've bought good, quality material and have had enough money to buy lots more.

You think that one trick is better than the other? Wow... Ever heard of the expression?:

"There are no bad tricks, just bad performers (or magicians."

Guess you haven't seen many highly skilled members then.

All the highly skilled members I've seen don't use your method of purchasing magic products.

Ummm...maybe because somethings look better on camera than in real life and I'm not a cam magician. Maybe somethings use tons of gimmicks and looks cool, but you don't know it. Maybe something has horrible angles and can't be used in public, but you don't know it. Prime example, the Snap Change. It's an awesome looking change on camera, but in person the angles are horrible. Can still pull it off, but horrible angles.

We have a community of magicians that would love to answer any pre-purchase questions you have.

But that Snap Change WAS a very good example.

Alright, if someone sells the Snap Change and they don't tell you that the angle sucks, then, personally, I don't find it unethical to look up the effect as the seller is lying. That I agree with.

But the thing is, not many magic sites are like that. Well, maybe the half-baked ones are (which I think there's a lot of those) but why shop there? Why not shop at somewhere reliable?

Yep, and on the forum I'm a part of, we have webcam conferences, so I KNOW who I'm "jamming" with too. We just live farther away from each other than you and your "magic buddies".

That's good. I guess it's okay to share with friends you know.

Reference my last paragraph. Also, calling me a noob is hardly mature. Come on, what are you? Ten? You know nothing about me or my magic.

Actually, I wasn't calling you a noob. Pay attention to the spelling:

YouTube

YouNoob

A You(N)oob is a person who reveals effects or posts half-ass performances.

So, I was refering to a general you. Not YOU specifically.

Sorry for the misintepratation.

Tyler

..:Z:..z Comments in Cyan

[Tyler Johnson]

Promises, promises.

Sorry, once finding that article, I had to post it asking if it was you.

Yes, Stuart was very upset that I denigrated one of his marketing heroes, Dan Kennedy. While he is fully entitled to his opinion of me, and of my opinions, but someone misrepresents what another wrote - that is the refuge of the very sad.

Yes, he is entitled to his opinion, and I am to mine. I find it right to go over someones magic and give your opinion. But personal attacks are to far.

I am that Brad Henderson. I have been reviewing for Magic Magazine since Michael Close left. Kenton's review is hardly the most cutting I have written. You should check out my reviews of Dan Army's Trespass, and most recently, the feature story on Phenomenon as carried by Genii Magazine.

That's very cool, congratulations on being able to write about magic, something you love. (Note: Not being sarcastic. I'm truly congratulating you.)

But Tyler, it seems to me that of anyone YOU should be PRAISING ME. You say that you don't have money to waste on bad products. You say you go to exposure sites to protect yourself from throwing cash away....Well, I did a very thorough job in that review of telling you why each of those tricks were bad. I covered the tactics used by Knepper to try and convince people that these half developed ideas were works of art. I provided the service you claim you go to the exposure sites for - without exposing anything!!!

I thought that was what you wanted, Tyler?

Or is it just the secrets?

Well, ones mans trash is another mans treasure. Something you might think sucks, might be really good to me. I trust myself.

Just to be truthful with everyone here. I AM NO LONGER, AND HAVEN'T BEEN FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, POSTING ON THE EXPOSURE SITE OR VIEWING IT. I've become a part of this forum, and the Dan & Dave forums. But, I have made friends through the online magic communities, and still discuss magic over IMs to this day. I am still a member at the online magic communities though. Which is what I meant when I said, "I'm part of an online magic community." Peace!

Tyler

[Tyler Johnson]

Wow, then your apperently searching in the wrong places.

I used to, until the online magic community came along.

You buying stuff from Criss Angel? That'll happen.

LOL I hate Criss Angel and anything he would sell would suck.

It all comes down to the EFFECT, not the method. If you like the EFFECT and if your happy with the REVIEWS of the other BUYERS, than why not purchase it? It sounds like your being really picky with what you want and I guess that's understandable to a certain extent. But seriosuly, why not read the reviews and do some research?

I'm gonna switch this around. Another mans treasure is another mans trash.

I like it how you just "assumed" that he didn't say my magic was "genius." Actually, I didn't show him any magic. It was my microphone and his webcam. He DID actually shoe me some of the effects he's considering releasing. Did you?

Actually, yes I showed him my magic. He thought it was "genius" and that I should sell it because lots of people would buy it.

You think that one trick is better than the other? Wow... Ever heard of the expression?: "There are no bad tricks, just bad performers (or magicians."

Yes, I've heard that expression. But it applies to actual tricks. Some tricks masquerade as tricks and can't be used at all. Tricks that wouldn't even fool a new born baby. (lol)

We have a community of magicians that would love to answer any pre-purchase questions you have.But the thing is, not many magic sites are like that. Well, maybe the half-baked ones are (which I think there's a lot of those) but why shop there? Why not shop at somewhere reliable?

Well, another mans treasure is another mans trash. Half-baked. (lol) I'm watching Dave Chappelle right now. But, I do shop somewhere reliable now.

Actually, I wasn't calling you a noob. Pay attention to the spelling: A You(N)oob is a person who reveals effects or posts half-ass performances. So, I was refering to a general you. Not YOU specifically. Sorry for the misintepratation.

Sorry, miss read that. And sorry for asking if you were ten. It's been a tough day. (lol) So, sorry.

Peace!

Tyler