What Are Some Solutions?

[waynehouchin]

October 5th - 7th, 2007 :: Now that we've defined some problems within our art, It is important that we discuss & find some PRACTICAL solutions. Read through the thread for September's Cerca Trova (What is Wrong With Magic...) What are some solutions to those problems?

[waynehouchin]

Greetings! First off I want to say that I will be in Sacramento all day tomorrow & then I'll be on a plane all day Sunday. I'm going to chime in when I can, but I'm also going to keep this thread open for a few more days.

So, lets get this ball rolling. Last month we discussed some of the problems & issues within our art. There were a ton of great responses & some very thought provoking answers. This month, I want to discuss some practical solutions to those problems. There were a lot to tackle, so go back & read through last months topic to refresh your memories.

One of the most commonly mentioned problems is that people don't seem to respect our art as much as we think they should. First, I would like to say that it is OUR JOB to earn respect & we must not fall into the trap of blaming the audience for not recognizing our art as much as we think they should.

When I was younger, I stressed out about telling people that I was a magician. I almost felt embarrassed to say it... As I grew & matured I developed a certain amount of confidence in what I do. I gained PRIDE in what I do. I no longer have any problems explaining to people exactly what it is that I do - I am PROUD of it.

My point is that as soon as I started taking pride in what I do & really started treating magic with the respect that it deserves - my perception of how people respond to magic completely changed. I personally believe that magic is more respected than we give it credit for. I think that our art suffers from some of the same problems that other arts suffer from - I think people have a natural tendency to be a little skeptical of "artists." The struggling artist is a strong archetypal image & I believe that every "artist" who is not famous - has to prove themselves to the laity. However, when you are embarrassed of your art - or you assume that people are not going to take you seriously - you project that. You expect people to laugh at you & therefore you perceive that they do.

I think that we need to respect our art & ourselves - and take PRIDE in what we do. If we do that, I think we will find that others do as well. What are your thoughts?

[conjure_pitch]

The bigger problems explained were lack of respect and exposure, if I remember correctly. The only solution I can think of to lack of respect is, in all honesty, just get better at it. I had a whole table of people the other day ask me how I did a trick (I didnt tell them and it was sinful) and they said after that it didn't even matter how did it but the fact that I could do it well was insane in itself (I am not even that good! haha) Practice more, which brings in Waynes "Take Pride" comment. Keep effects in your bedroom until you can get them down so well that the art becomes so well done that people can't help but respect it.


As for exposure, I am stumped. It's like Physics 30 homework, I kind of just hope it will go away.

[S3al]

The bigger problems explained were lack of respect and exposure, if I remember correctly. The only solution I can think of to lack of respect is, in all honesty, just get better at it. I had a whole table of people the other day ask me how I did a trick (I didnt tell them and it was sinful) and they said after that it didn't even matter how did it but the fact that I could do it well was insane in itself (I am not even that good! haha) Practice more, which brings in Waynes "Take Pride" comment. Keep effects in your bedroom until you can get them down so well that the art becomes so well done that people can't help but respect it.


As for exposure, I am stumped. It's like Physics 30 homework, I kind of just hope it will go away.

Agreed, as for exposure. The main problem is that there is no one telling these beginners what to do. I was like that. Here is what I mean. I thought the cool thing to do when I first got into magic, was to post tutorials on youtube. And I was going to, but then I read some stuff on E, about people talking about it, and it showed me how wrong it was to do so.

This is the problem, I had no one guiding me when I first started out, and a lot of other people have the same problem. So we get lost. Forget about specs respecting our art, most magicians don't respect our art, and thats worse.

We need to guide them. I think people like Wayne, well, really every magician here, needs to come right out against exposure, and how we need to respect magic. Because these are the people the beginners in our art, model them self after.


But how would you do this? I have no idea. Make a video of it, I guess put it in all your dvd's, at the end of each one? put it on the site? those are some ideas.

But do not only talk about exposure, but how much we need to practice as well. And how we owe it to our self and to our audience to do the best show that we can do. And this comes from lots of practice. I never hear this from anyone, and it needs to be said, or we our not going to get any where. In other words...guide them.

In my mind, this needs to be done, and would be a big step forward.

[thaumaturge]

Hi,

I have read the whole previous thread yesterday and wrote a bit of a summary. I agree with Wayne that self respect is a problem. And there are some solutions to overcome this.

First of all I would like to stress that magic (and any other type of performance) has the potential to be art - just performing a couple tricks or singing a song does not make one an artist.

One point mentioned was that magicians present themselves as tricksters instead of 'miracle workers'. I think this is not a lack of respect for the art, but a case of te magician not believing in the magic ourselves.

I used to be like that and turned away from magic in disappointment ten years ago. I recently returned to being a magician and have become much better in a shorter time because I have changed my attitude. Specially after seeing Jeff McBride and Eugene Burger in a convention, I became truly inspired to change my mindset and improve my magic.

One thing Eugene Burger said stuck in my mind: "Don't do anything you don't have the skill for". So I stick to very simple stuff and work more on the presentation. I am testing this out tomorrow when I compete in my clubs annual competition. I fill 8 minutes of magic and only use two moves. I'll let you know how it went :)

I would also like to add my two cents about exposure. I do not see that as a great problem. I have performed the Ninja Rings with great success for some time now. One day somebody told me they bought a set of linking rings in the toy shop. "But my rings can't do what yours do", he said. I guess the hours and hours or practice getting the technique and choreography right paid off!

So my second solution to the problem is PRACTICE! I have been back in magic for one year now and only do a handful of effects, because they are the only ones I feel comfortable performing. Looking at Youtube, more people should keep this in mind. And it would also be good to actually see people's faces: magic is not about the props, it is about the magician.

Thanks for starting this great discussion Wayne.

Peter

[Gin]

Hi everybody,

I missed last months topic so please excuse me to explain my point of view about the reasons why magic does not get the respect that it deserves first:

Magicians always try to adapt their performance to customers needs as much as they can. We do walk acts under the worst circumstances, we try to include even the most boring message into our performance at a trade show. We arrive at private parties and are able to play our act even on the smallest stage. What is the conclusion out of this: We do everything to fit the clients needs. They dictate in which venue we have to perform. They don't care about the live band, that plays loud during our close-up act, because we promised to perform at every place at every time. Often we behave more like a prostitute than an artist.

Take a look at other artists: A painter is drawing a picture in his personal style. As he likes to draw it. He does not ask the customer how he likes to have it drawn. An actor is always playing a role in his personal interpretation. Not like the spectators in a theatre or movie dictates him to play.

First, I would like to say that it is OUR JOB to earn respect & we must not fall into the trap of blaming the audience for not recognizing our art as much as we think they should.


That is exactly the point. To earn more respect for our art, we have to set the circumstances. One possible solution could be to bring magic back to the theatre. Imagine yourself playing on a real stage (whith a real curtain), not only small sets of five or ten minutes, but for two hours including a break! Here we have the great opportunity to present our art as we want it to be seen. We set the stage, we are responsible for all the circumstances and we have the time to communicate our point of view. We have the time to show all the interesting aspects of our well worked out stage persona and last but not least: People come into the theater, because they want to see us and our magic. Not we come to the people and bring our magic to them (whether they want it or not).

Consider magicians like Copperfield or Lance Burton. They are definitely seen as artists by the public. They work in theatres. Can you imagine Robert Houdin doing walk acts or trade shows?

Please understand that I do not condemn those kind of gigs at all. After all, we have to eat and earn money. But the question was what we can do to earn more respect for our art. This is one possible solution. Go, find a small theatre (perhaps 30 or 50 seats) and try it out for yourself! By the way: Working on a two-hour-show is a lot of fun, you'll learn a lot and grow in your art.

Cheers,

Gin

[dasuprememep]

I think that something that could solve a lot of things hurting magic is to start treating it like an art. When someone sees Criss Angel or someone like that on TV, they think that it's really cool and visual and is great magic. However, it's really making them appreciate magic less. Magic used to be an art, that you needed to concentrate on the trick to truly be amazed. Now it's more WOAH MAN HOW DID YOU DO THAT!

I'm not saying that magic shouldn't be visual, I'm saying that the whole trick should be a performance, not just the ending. Take this example: If you go to a concert and a chamber orchestra is playing, you sit through the whole thing and you enjoy the entire experience, not just the climax at the end of the piece. We need to make the whole trick entertaining. If you performed Two Card Monte and you talked in monotone the entire time, you are setting the spectators up to only enjoy the ending when the cards change. What I'm sayin is that you need to perform the whole time!

What I think people should do is to become better actors. That's really what a magician is. An actor. Use more entertaining patter, more intonations in voice, more variations of mood, more interaction with spectators, more connecting with them, more stories to tell, more passion in your voice. Just be a better actor. And when you do become a better actor, you'll see that the reactions don't come after the trick and end when they stop clapping, they go on and on in the spectators mind. Instead of them thinking, "Wow, that was amazing, I want to know how he did that, I'm going on Youtube to find out" They'll think, "What a funny guy." or "That was a good story" If they are younger.

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,"
~ William Shakespeare

As You Like It 2/7

[Creeper]

I agree with the post above me. When people see magic, I'm estimating about 80% of people want to know how it's done. I think somehow if we can announce to layman that, we work REALLY hard. This is, well some of ours, life's work. And for all that to be thrown away by a stupid youtube video?


Adressing the youtube situation, to be honest I don't think it'll ever end. These people who are exposing magic are losing more then us. They will never have the chance to be a great magician, because all they do is expose.

[MitchellStafiej]

Well there are so many problems, and the ones such as exposure and others require nothing more than ignoring it. There is truly not solution to that problem, it will always be there, but they can't expose everything, so keep positive.

I think for many teenagers/kids who come to these forums simply want to do magic for attention and to have something "cool" to show their friends. We must direct these people in the right direction to do this magic for more than just that little laugh from their friends. We must teach them that magic is more than just a 5 second trick but a wonderful experience. We must point them in the right direction to becoming a wonderful magician, performer, and amaze their audiences.

Mitchell

[Dave Egleston]

I hope you'll indulge an old man and his viewpoint.

For many of you there has never been life without ESPN, JACKASS or YOU-TUBE and that's why we have a problem in the magic community.

ESPN will show Shaq slam dunking a basketball with his team losing by 20 points and Shaq reacting like he just won the NBA finals with his self indulgent celebration.

JACKASS will have a guy run a bicycle into a brick wall and knock himself out and act like they just nailed the soliloquy from HAMLET.

YOU-TUBE presents a medium for those who will never be showcased on ESPN or JACK-ASS.

In this day and age of immediate gratification , it's hard to impress upon the novice magician that all his hard work should go completely unnoticed as a technician, because magicians make the audience see something that just can't be possible.

The intention of a good magic trick is to entertain, not impress upon the audience how clever and skillful the magician is with a deck of card or a stack of coins. This is precisely why flourishing is so popular these days so we can get our Shaq-like chest thumps in full view of the audience.

That's not a condemnation of flourishing, that takes as much practice as a good magic trick.

The bottom line for me is: if you're going to learn or teach magic it's important to realize that no one should ever see you do the pass or double lift and the longer and harder you work to perfect sleights, the more invisible to the audience they will be, therefore all the audience sees is; coin disappeared from left hand and reappeared in the right hand.........period. No back clips - no edge grip - no Kaps subtlety .............nothing. Just Coin disappeared - Coin reappeared. You may have worked 6 months to a year to perfect all the moves, manipulations and misdirections to make that coin disappear and reappear, but all the audience sees is the 30 seconds of mystery.

This is not in line with how many of the younger set perceives entertainment and why they need that ESPN moment.

What can be done?

Perform for audiences - not magicians.

Highlight your skill set - Do you want to impress audiences with your dexterity or stupefy them with the impossible? I suggest separating the two genres such as doing pure deceptive magic then as you finish your set, dazzle them as you leave with some flourishes.

Problem is, when you show the flourishes, you've given them a reasonable and plausible explanation for the card magic they thought was impossible.

Dave

[sky_lark]

Magic isn't as wide a form as some other art, and thus people don't understand it. Everything happens so fast and so thorough that they just don't get it. It stays with them for maybe that day, but then it's history. The magic that really excels is the type that stays with people forever.

If you go and see somebody levitate, cool, but it doesn't really matter.

If you go and see somebody make you levitate, that sticks with you forever. "I just floated three feet off the ground!" You're actually experiencing it; it's not possible.

Works with other tricks as well. But that's were magicians go wrong. They aren't opening up the tricks to spectators. It's always forgotten. You can do an extensive cups and balls routine, or you can do something extensive that actually involves the audience.

You pop one spongeball in their hand, one in yours, you open-instead of two being in your hand, there's two in their's. Why does that matter?

Because suddenly all the attention is on you. You just finished the trick. You aren't a magician yet you just performed magic.

Final thoughts: Involve your spectators. Support their beliefs. Make them feel like they are the magicians, not you.

PS. Worried about they getting all the fame and not you? Won't happen. Because the truth is: they can't do the trick without you.

- sky_lark

[Raito]

Television as it seems brought magic back to the general public, the problem is some of those effects on television is near impossible to perform live.
I am constantly compare to Criss Angel or David Blaine when I perfrom an effect.
So the only solution I see for people to respect all magicians is tone down the impossibility on television, and make a little personal miracle when you perform an effect.
Stop walking pass thin air or make people warp back in time. Because whatever people see on television, every magician is going to get compared to that.
Wayne Houchin's "Stigmata" seemed impossible to the audience, but can be perform by any magician. That's the type of miracle im getting at, not effects that bombard the mine.When people stop walking up buildings on TV then maybe i'll get a little respect.

[Darshwood]

Hey Guys:

Just a thought... I've been away from the net for a while, but when I started to read some of the posts on this thread today, I was reminded of something.

Magic has evolved for centuries, right? Some may even argue that magic has evolved over as much as 20,000 years. And now more than ever, it's available on an open market.

I recently returned to the art after a decade long hiatus. I was worried at first because I wasn't sure how easy it was going to be to pick it back up. What I found out was that anyone with a credit card can potentially become a magician. Of course not everyone can become a master or even a good magician as long as they own a PK ring or a custom deck of cards and a couple of instructional DVDs, but it is conceivable.

Why do I bring this up?

Well, I theorize that long ago, in order to become a magician, you had to really study. It wasn't about which trick you just purchased at the local shop or your favorite online store. You actually had to sit down and research the subject, practice the skills and undergo the training of a master showman. The little boys that climbed the Indian Ropes up into the air eventually grew up to become the guy that would climb up after the little boys only to chop them up into little pieces. ( If you don't know what I'm talking about - I highly recommend picking up any book on magic history at your local library.) In other words, to become a magician used to involve a rite of passage and that is not the case these days.

I, myself, would not say that I have a master teacher in the arts, but I do have a mentor. He has vastly helped me to advance in the art with nothing more than simple advice. Now I know that such advice can be found on any magic forum, but it means a lot more and holds steadily in the mind when it comes from someone you know and trust and have to face next time around when he asks "Well, did you do what I told you to do?"

I hope this doesn't read like mindless ramblings, but I was just inspired to suggest to all of my fellow conjurors - Find a mentor! Go to your local club meetings. Hit up the nearest shop. Find someone, anyone that is more experienced than you. Ask him or her if they wouldn't mind a session. The older guys will know exactly what you mean and there you have it - someone that will guide along the path of prestidigitation. I think you will find that when you meet a wise, old magician he will gladly share advice with you. We all want to help each other out. It's traditional among artists to share our knowledge with each other. Don't let that Christian Bale movie fool you - not all secrets have their price.

And that's my solution to one of magic's modern issues.

Peace be with you all and good luck,
Darsh

[thaumaturge]

In this day and age of immediate gratification

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one Dave.

But I am not sure whether this is a sign of the times or the sign of a generation. When I was a teenager I performed magic much to fast, not giving attention to the detail of presentation and so forth.

There now seem to be hordes of teenagers coming to magic - which is really great. Twenty years ago, the average age of magicians seemed to be much higher.

This, in combination with the fact that it is now much easier to purchase good magic and places like Youtube, puts us in the current situation.

A solution to this problem is not easy. One of the early posts in the last topic mentioned lack of respect by the older magicians. I see this in my club: the older magicians don't understand what the younger magicians wants to achieve. So one of my solutions is to create some understanding and reduce the generation gap in magic, which will improve the magic teenagers perform.

We saw problems with the standard of magic in our club and now started a compulsory workshop where an experienced magician teaches the intricacies of performing magic.

I am the editor of my club's newsletter. Maybe I could raise the generation gap as a topic and tantalise some discussion.

Peter

[Ring Master]

What i think we should to help magic is to have fun doing magic, respect it and just enjoy the pleasure of the art of twisting reality that u have that no 1 has.

[RebelAce69]

.

We saw problems with the standard of magic in our club and now started a compulsory workshop where an experienced magician teaches the intricacies of performing magic.

I am the editor of my club's newsletter. Maybe I could raise the generation gap as a topic and tantalise some discussion.

Peter

That is something that will help alot. Many of the magicians I have met on forums are teenagers. The ones who are adults don't go on forums or even what to talk to you since they think your just a nieve "kid." Some of us who are teenagers or maybe even younger, in fact, are honestly really good magicians. I've seen performances on Youtube and other places and some are pretty good, and have practiced and have taken the time a intiative. The one thing that bugs me is the stereotype that most teens are here just to learn stuff buy every gimmick there is and then perform to look cool then tell the world. There is no real way to stop these people, it's their human nature and nothing can change that. With technology there will be no end unless we can pick out the best of the best of the people who actually take magic seriously. Obviously people who have been doing magic for 10-20 years know what's right and what's wrong with the "magicians code." We can only try and tell and convince these people what's right and wrong and doing that to every magician who has ever revealed a secret on youtube, will be endless. For a final solution, there isn't one, we can only hope people see the light at the end of the tunnel and realize magic is something you should respect and do for it, as it has done for you.

-RA69

[daffy]

Extract from Magic, November 1992.

"Quick: In the next five seconds try to name two branches of the performing arts where a performer who has no skill, has never practiced a day in his life and is absolutely awful at what he does, can earn a living. Beep. Time's up. Try this combo: magic and stripping. (Some people refer to the latter as exotic dancing.) A fellow walks into a store and buys a bunch of box tricks, has no talent and neoer practices, yet can work small jobs from now till doomsday and make a living. Strippers are lucky-at least they don't have to buy their apparatus: they're born with it! It doesn't matter if they're pretty or not, it couldn't be less important whether they can dance or not. They have the required parts. No talent, no practice, but making a living nonetheless. Actor? Forget it, you'd be out in a minute. Musician? Can't play your instrument if you haven't practiced. Dancer? Your body is your instrument, as in acting, and without a great deal of work you might as well not even show up. None of the more widely esteetned branches of the performing arts can be based solely, entirely, and completely on a "hook" or gimmick of some type. Even juggling, ventriloquism, and giving a chalk talk require some practice! Magic is based upon secrets (1 know something you don't), and stripping is based upon the lure of body parts (1 have something you want). If you know the secret or have the correct anatomy, you're in business. Thar's all, brother. Don't ever say that we never tackle the really important issues."

Richard Kaufman

[thaumaturge]

That is a great extract from Magic!

It begs the question, however, why somebody without much skill can become a professional magician. If this is the case, audiences obviously do not have very high expectations of what a magician does.

A distinctive difference between art and entertainment is that an artist has a product and then waits for audiences to become interested - which in some cases is only after death. An entertainer works the other way around - they create a product around what the market wants. I don't think that magic in the great majority of cases in an art, but is entertainment. There is nothing wrong with that, but we should not become too pretentious.

Most people are obviously happy with cheese sponge ball routines and meaningless card tricks.

The same is the case for most performing arts. Average music taste is not very high brow and not many people are interested in going to the theatre to enjoy a play. If audiences lower their expectations, so do the entertainers/magicians.

A solution: this is part of our cultural fabric. Although I don't believe people's psychology has changed, technology has created an environment in which this lowering of standards is encouraged - if it sells an add, it will get on tv. Maybe it is flagship magicians, such as the Theory11 artists who have a role to play in elevating people's expectations.

By the way, how about a combination of striptease and magic? English experimental performer Ursula Martinez performs some interesting pieces of theatre in that genre. Maybe she read the article in Magic and took it to the next level.

Peter

[-Ty]

Respect.

It all starts with us, with you, right here right now. Not theorising about what others can do, but putting a mentality to ourselves in this moment.

Respect our art/craft. Respect our effects.

What does that mean? Practice.

By practicing and learning our craft to the fullest extent possible, we will begin to respect the work and dedication that magic carries. Not only that, but this appreciation will carry through in performances and audiences will in turn bear more respect for what they are experiencing.

This will also help exposure, although this is a lesser problem. By stresssing the respect magic carries to other new magicians, we can begin to pull in a new appreciation for magic.
This comes back to the missing link of mentors and apprentices in magic. This type of learning is greatly lacking in today's scene, although in theory it should be easier.

But again, this exposure stems from a lack of respect within the community. And this starts with each and every one of us.

[/Preach mode]

Ty

[Krash]

I agree with you 100% Wayne. I really think that we don't take as much pride in our magic and in ourselves as we should. I mean, an effect is only as good as the performer. We all need to forfill our obligation to practice as much as we can. We need to make sure that the work we produce and show to the masses isn't the half assed garbage that some heckler would post on youtube just because he can...and no one's there to stop him.

I also agree with those who said we need to make it our responsibility to guide those dubbed as "newbies". I remember when I first started out, I had no clue how disrespectful it was to perform an effect that you didn't pay for. When you buy a DVD or a book that explains every detail on how to perform an effect it's like buying the rights to perform it and signing a contract saying "I swear never to screw this up in front of my audience."

We do need to take some form of effective action against exposure. What that is yet...I'm not sure, but I'm sure that we'll have an effective solution sometime in the future.

As of now, all we can do is practice our sets and place ourselves under a magnifying glass. We've all got what it takes, right?

Shane K.

[RebelAce69]

I agree with you 100% Wayne. I really think that we don't take as much pride in our magic and in ourselves as we should. I mean, an effect is only as good as the performer. We all need to forfill our obligation to practice as much as we can. We need to make sure that the work we produce and show to the masses isn't the half assed garbage that some heckler would post on youtube just because he can...and no one's there to stop him.

I also agree with those who said we need to make it our responsibility to guide those dubbed as "newbies". I remember when I first started out, I had no clue how disrespectful it was to perform an effect that you didn't pay for. When you buy a DVD or a book that explains every detail on how to perform an effect it's like buying the rights to perform it and signing a contract saying "I swear never to screw this up in front of my audience."

We do need to take some form of effective action against exposure. What that is yet...I'm not sure, but I'm sure that we'll have an effective solution sometime in the future.

As of now, all we can do is practice our sets and place ourselves under a magnifying glass. We've all got what it takes, right?

Shane K.

I love the way you worded that post, good job Shane.

As for the buying the DVD's part and saying it's a contract. It's such a contract but more of a right to the perform showing your loyal. When you illegally watch things like The Trilogy your disrespecting not only the art of magic but, the performer. And some people don't realize that. I won't lie, yup I've seen pirated stuff, doesn't mean I've downloaded a whole bunch stuff. It's a simple matter of knowing right from wrong, and that big red "WARNING!" screen on DVD's should give an indication.

Being honest is a simple solution to this ever-going problem but, like I said in my previous post it won't solve it. We can only buy dvd's a practice tricks like mad and respect the art of magic and hope others catch along. Practicing I believe is the ultimate way to show your respect (as well as buying dvd's but you need the DVD to practice.) I myself practiced all the effects from E's gaff deck, for a combined 10-12 hours. Just to get it right, I can perform it great for audiences but, there's still things I always tweak. Magic is a very complex thing to perform and talk about, you need to pick your card, much like your challenge, and need to find a way to reveal the card, much like trying to find the solution.

Cheesy analogy FTW

-RA69

[Mic Wong]

how about actions taken in helping the public to distinguish "Novelty" and "Performing magic"?


Imagine a "novelty central"--probably your most official site for all your novelty/puzzle/trick needs.

Then wait.....someone asks for magic.

Webmaster's reply:

"what, you want to look into magic? That doesn't belong here....go T11.com for that.....

Magic is SO different from novelty entertainment....it's so much more complicated and difficult...you sure want to be a magician and not just building your own arsenal of novelties?

You should take the blue pill man...."

[thaumaturge]

That is a good distinction - novelty versus magic.

Most magic shops are also novelty/gag shops and when you enter the physical shop, they don't sell you magic, unless you know what your after and they take you to the back of the shop where the good stuff is on sale.

Magic shops in the web are different - anyone with a credit card can buy magic.

I remember when I was a teenager and keen to move beyond the toy shop magic box it was hard to find a place to buy professional gear. The knowledge required to perform magic was much better guarded. The internet has opened up information in many ways, including magic.

Solution: I understand that commercial thinking implies that you want to sell your gear to everybody. There is, however, also a responsibility of the people selling magic to guard our secrets. Maybe a solution is to have a front and back shop, selling the advanced stuff only to those who meet certain criteria. What is your view on this Wayne?

Peter

[Gin]

Hey Folks,

after reading through all the posts so far I must say that I read some really true and interesting points. Especially those who state that there is a constant lack of proper education have my support. I was preaching many years now that every magician has to really study our art. I cannot believe that there are magicians out there who never studied classics like the cups and balls or the linking rings. Instead they are asking every day for "new stuff".

But I want to stress once again that the responsibility lies within ourselfes. It is quite easy to blame the online-shops, the fools on youtube and the people who walk out and perform before they are ready.

So what can I do? I cannot stop the shop-owner selling to everybody who is willing to pay. I cannot stop the idiot posting his "explanation video" on youtube. But I can try to do the exact opposite of all these things. I can keep my secrets and resist from explaining them to everybody who asks on the internet. I can develop my own stage persona, my own style and my own presentations to show the people out there that there is more to magic than short MTV-style effects. To raise the respect for our art we have to bring magic effects far away from puzzles. Every single piece you perform has to be a carefully directed theatre play with the ultimate goal to create an emotion whithin our spectator. And I do not mean the emotion of confusion about the question how the "puzzle" is going to be solved.

Cheers,

Gin

[Mic Wong]

Exactly. This is my reason to put forth "distinction" between puzzle/novelty and magic.

-magicians today don't treat something as important for a need to "study" it.
down here in HK, many people now do have improved and start to go for the achievemnt of "magic is for bringing happiness". Bu the definition itself has a flaw, because it encourage the lack of serious to treat the study of the art, and that they should do something for "self-pleasure".


therefore, those who treat magic merely as a hobby need some education as to why they NEED to pay attention to the study of art; the way they SHOULD present magic.......

IT DOES SOUND VERY WEIRD to control what other people should/should not do...

...but I tend to belief that it is one of the inborn "obligation" to consider yourself as a magician.

IF such an idea is justified, then we can start to think of educational side of the issue.

At the same time, we should start head ourselves towards the "novelty" community to see what differences we have, then start to attract people's attention with novelty.

Because the only way to make two similar ideas separate themselves, is to make them POPULAR, then when it gets attention, everyone will see "Oh....that's something else."

[Mshade]

In my opinion there isn't one solution to solve the problems of magic as an art. Many people get interested in magic as a phase in their life and drop it a few weeks or months later. Although every single new magician has to start somewhere these people do a lot of damage to the art. All the explanation videos or 'tricks' (which might as well be explanation since you clearly see what is really happening) on youtube reveal a lot of hard work that magicians have put into creating magical effects.

If I had to make one solution though I would shut down every single magic shop in the world. I know a lot of magicians make their income from inventing and selling great material but I sorta wish magic could be like the good old days. If someone really wanted to learn the real secrets of magic they would have to become an apprentice to a master magician. I think it's a very good system because the people who really want to learn magic would be able to learn it from a real working professional. Maybe magic shops could stay open but instead of selling effects they would have classes in which you payed to learn a certain effect from someone who really knows how to perform it well. And they could correct your mistakes in handling and presentation and a few weeks later you would leave that shop much better equipped to do magic then you would if you had learned it from a DVD.

Just my two cents.

[Mic Wong]

some more thoughts thrown to the problems....

Actually I think magic has gone to the point of which we really seem to see how "continuous market expansion" and Magic doesn't work out.

If we look back to all the respect and exposure problems, they all rooted from one beginning--

they either had misconceptions to the art, or that they shouldn't have been magicians at the beginning.

With more people adding into the community of "magicians",
we have more people that are likely to not take magic seriously.
we have more people that are likely to not get what the art is about.
We have more people that will get mislead with misconceptions.
We have more people leaving magic without ever really knowing what magic is actually about,

yet they THINK they know, and start INFLUENCING their friends and family with THEIR perception of magic to them. And they already quitted magic, and talk as if he has gone through everything.

Amongst the main reasons, one is for the fact that businessmen WANTS them to be part of their market.

At the end, those people became the burden of the community.

Because businessmen TELLS THEM they should consider themselves as magicians, but no one knew what obligations that need to take as a magician,
businessmen doesn't make DVDS to tell them the tough side of magic...no way...that will scare people away.

and lo and behold, these "magicians" all go ruin the image of magic as "being part of it", becasue they are having fun without the responsibility.


So by thinking why people expose magic on youtube, why people treat magic in ways that ruins magic, while actually having fun as well,

is because the market expansion is done with no responsibilty. No one gave a clear idea of what "being a magician" is really about.

Of course it would only be foolish on my part to say what I think what people should do, but I think one of the solutions is to actually start setting out clear concepts to newcomers that:

Magic is fun; but the fun comes only with responsibility.
And Responsibility isn't part of the fun.

Those who ruin the art for fun won't really give the slightest concern to respect; so we really need to consider whether they should any longer become part of the market...

If they are just doing it because of bearing misconceptions, then promotions and education come in.

that should have been part of the price when you pay for a secret, not just money. Only if businessmen can buy bread with paid obligations.

[Bizzaro]

I see many good points on here. Instant gratification is indeed a problem, but there is no way to fix that as technology and human nature marches forward. We just have to adapt and restrain ourselves from taking an easy route.

Exposure doesn't hurt magic in the long run as many seem to think. Sure it sucks but it happens. Music sharing hasn't made music obsolete nor has software piracy hurt Microsoft sales. (Well not as much as they may like it to seem) Problem is we chide exposure but welcome magic shops and books in libraries. Magic has become and archetype of the world. you say magic it conjures up certain images and pre-conceived notions. No getting around that. There are certain things ingrained in people's minds due to hundreds of years of saturation and use.

The best way to help the problems in magic is to help those who are hurting people's OUTLOOK of magic. It's one of the only arts in the world where you can buy your title and skill. 20$ and a trick deck of cards later at a tourist magic shop and you too can be the next best thing on your block. You can't buy paints and be an artist, nor brushes and be a faboo artist right out of the gate.

Most magicians are stuck in the stigma of they HAVE to fool an audience. That's not necessary. People are lied to and confused on a daily basis by the world around them. What they need is to let it go for a bit. Relax, laugh, and have a good time. So instead of trying to fool people we should be finding ways to entertain them. Not just ha ha'. They can get that on TV and books. I mean a one on one human interaction entertainment. The kind of satisfaction you can only get from live theater.

To fix the problems in magic it starts with you, me, all of us. We cannot stop what has already come before and their repercussions. We can cushion the blow however. Treat what we do as an art an not just a way to kill time. Be serious about what you do and care about what you do.

Discussing it on the internet isn't the cure. The answers lies in each of us.

[darkheart12]

T Practice more, which brings in Waynes "Take Pride" comment. Keep effects in your bedroom until you can get them down so well that the art becomes so well done that people can't help but respect it.

This is exactly what I had trouble with. I came out way too fast, and I did not have everything down. I did ok, but I was not confident with my material, or with how I preformed. It took awhile to recognize the fact, but when I did, I have become so much more. I preformed for about half a year at school, and I felt that I did good, but there was a lacking in my magic. I felt that there was something missing. The thing that I found was missing is heart and soul of the magic. I did not have the right patter, story line, or practice to make things seem "Magical". It looked good, but it did not feel right to me. Which comes to my point, magicians need to feel that their magic is magical to them, not just for the spectator. We can fix this by taking a step backwards, and just practicing more and while practicing, ask yourself "Does my magic have a Soul? Does my magic convey the passion I have for my art? Can I do anything to make my image better?. Just by asking yourself these questions, we can all be better performers, and better magicians. I read somewhere that a magician's job is to feel good about his magic and to believe in what he does, while taking the spectator on for the ride. The Magician comes first, and the the spectator is just watching the magic come out of the magician.
I hope this helps some people to create their magic and their charisma with magic.

[sky_lark]

This is exactly what I had trouble with. I came out way too fast, and I did not have everything down.

Aye. Same thing with me. Whenever I learn a trick, I feel like I shouldn't practice and suddenly I'm so exited to show it to somebody. I show it to somebody, and it's not as good as I wanted.

Even if you think you're good without practicing, you're wrong. You have to grit your teeth and practice, every day, for a long time. Get a routine, pop in some lines, etc.

Build your way up with people and your tricks, and finally you can become what you wanted.

Now I have to do what I just said above. :D

[S3al]

Aye. Same thing with me. Whenever I learn a trick, I feel like I shouldn't practice and suddenly I'm so exited to show it to somebody. I show it to somebody, and it's not as good as I wanted.

Even if you think you're good without practicing, you're wrong. You have to grit your teeth and practice, every day, for a long time. Get a routine, pop in some lines, etc.

Build your way up with people and your tricks, and finally you can become what you wanted.

Now I have to do what I just said above. :D

darn it, you said "aye" and now every time I read your post, I read it with a Scottish accent. Or you sound like a pirate. But I'm the other way around, I practice until I go crazy.

[conjure_pitch]

A good solution to not practicing enough, is to find a demo person.


I use either my mother, sister, or girlfriend. Females tend to work better in my opinion, they just seem more into it. Anyways, what I mean is start by practicing an effect to the point of insanity and then, when you THINK you have it down (If your anything like me, when you THINK its ready, itll be another week at least) show it to your demo spectator. They will tell you if you screw up, flash, or fail miserably (I just failed indecnt miserably for my sister this morning, and I have been performing it for months. In fact I nailed it for 15 people last night) and help you fix whats wrong.

That just popped into my head. Sorry for not including it in my original post.

[The Dark Angel]

A good solution to not practicing enough, is to find a demo person.


I use either my mother, sister, or girlfriend. Females tend to work better in my opinion, they just seem more into it. Anyways, what I mean is start by practicing an effect to the point of insanity and then, when you THINK you have it down (If your anything like me, when you THINK its ready, itll be another week at least) show it to your demo spectator. They will tell you if you screw up, flash, or fail miserably (I just failed indecnt miserably for my sister this morning, and I have been performing it for months. In fact I nailed it for 15 people last night) and help you fix whats wrong.

That just popped into my head. Sorry for not including it in my original post.

Good advice.

Something that I would add:
Practice until you feel you could do the trick almost perfectly, and then practice some more. I've had people call me out on various different effect because I only practiced until I could do a manageable performance.
Which brings me to my next point:
The only thing that's near as bad as exposure is a crappy performance of a trick. I've seen Panic inadvertently revealed because people hadn't practiced it well enough, or practiced in front of the camera to understand the angles. There are many other effects that have been exposed because the person only practiced the trick once or twice and decided it was worthy to be shown to the masses.
I'm sure I"m going somewhere with this, I'll edit the post and add more later.

[Jordan Garret]

A good tip i find..
Make sure your relaxed..

And make sure your having fun when you perform..

Because with me.. If I;m not having fun.. My crowd probably isnt getting the best reactions that i could be giving them...

So besure your relaxed, Havng fun And doing your damn best.

Also!

Dont be too anxious to perform a new effect.
Keep it in the bedroom for at least a week.
Then after practising,
Let it roam around the house.. Try it out on family members..
After that, Take it for a few walks. Show your close friends. The honost easy going people.
After that.. Set the trick free. And let it explore the and amazing the minds of our.. Poor.. Unsuspecting.. Victims..

~Jordan

[Bizzaro]

Learn how to use the tools at your disposal. It is better to know 4-5 tricks REALLY well than 50 really poorly. Perform as much as you can... but only when you are confident you CAN. Pay attention to reactions. If you do not get what you want, fix it until you do. Never give up. Never surrender.

[cardmstr]

I think that Wayne is hitting the nail on the head with taking PRIDE in what we do.
what does this mean? this means that we should practice our magic until it's darn-near perfect...and then GO OUT to perform it in a meaningful way that will have the spectator not wondering how we did it...but asking for more. notice i put GO OUT in all caps. this is because I believe magic on Youtube is pretty much death. i'd almost be willing to guarantee that any one person who's visited youtube has seen at least one person doing a magic trick on it. it desensitizes our audience to what can be seen IN PERSON.

so this is my (seemingly impossible) solution: keep magic off of Youtube. if you really MUST put videos up then keep them on magic sites where the general public won't see it. TAKE PRIDE IN actually PERFORMING for people, instead of just having them watch you. and help others to understand the happiness that can be attained from actually performing.

note: i didn't say flourishing because i think flourishing is fine for youtube. it isn't something that's meant to have an effect on people. it is merely to show off. so go ahead and show off. i mean it is very fun. :)

that's all i got.

[sky_lark]

darn it, you said "aye" and now every time I read your post, I read it with a Scottish accent. Or you sound like a pirate. But I'm the other way around, I practice until I go crazy.

Rofl. :P

I'm only a pirate once a year, on Speak Like A Pirate Day, sorry.

--

A good solution to not practicing enough, is to find a demo person.

Aye. I always have trouble with that. Usually it's up to my family or friends. Usually my family is busy or at work or doesn't care about a magic trick. Or when they do, it's because they're being nice. I don't blame them; I understand.
My friends, on the other hand, want to see magic. However, they want to see the secrets. Like most people, but still, they will steal my props just to get a good look.

Thus, it can be especially hard to perform good tricks with them.

So I end up usually with little practice (see my post above) and not experienced.

Not the way to go.

But I'm changing. I'm bringing in more tricks without gimmicks or start and end clean. I'm also assigning myself ways to show the world magic. :cool:

[Bunny Boy]

Written in 2001. Manifesto

Further notes exist, but I can only include what is necessary to convey my message.



*(Note to self-the change is gradual. The change is happening with more open forms of communication, however, degradation of this art continues.)


Magic as Art is failing and who is to blame but ourselves!

How can an unimaginable power given to us be lessened overtime?

The great one-handed magician, Rene Lavand has said this is a lesser art, our punishment. We have punished ourselves. Now degraded to such phrases as, "a touch of the wand," "neither here, nor there", "a sprinkle of magic dust," and "let us say abracadabra".

“And naturally came the punishment that, of course, was not the rage of god, but the boredom of the audience.” -R.L.

We must act with immediacy!

We must examine the images that have shaped our culture. Let us take the rabbit for example, a hard truth, but a truth none-the-less. Beyond Copperfield, before David Blaine one photograph stood among the rest, defining the modern magician. You remember the man who wore a tuxedo, hair slicked aside, holding a top hat against his palm and with the other hand, pulled a “rabbit” out of the hat. Is there no other image in the last century to define us? Is this who we are today?

*(Houdini images come to mind. They evoke a feeling of restraint, is he telling us something?)

And further into the rabbit hole we go.

How can we return to our holy seats where Magi's were once heralded by kings and queens?


Let us investigate the consciousness of today’s magician by appropriately educating ourselves. Study our sacred art and those before us leading back when sorcerers etched in stones tell a story of a strong mysterious craft. Soon after, we disvalue everything we learned and start from the ground up (do not trap yourself into fixed terms, nor value those before us). Our collective consciousness will re-birth itself into a brand new era, a culture with devoted secrecy.


The need to break from one another to seek new images is more urgent, now then ever (this cannot be accomplished by moving in packs). We must bring proper images that bring back "life" to the Magi. We must stop backpacking on other ideas and seek further exploration into the dream, the dream that started our conquest to be truth tellers. We must move beyond respecting this art and grasp it with the faith of a thousand men.


The demoralization of our culture due to exposure will continue unless we govern stricter laws by creating more value onto our effects without a price tag! Once understood, the artist shall move forward creating illusions of grandeur, breaking the false reality along with methods that go further than today’s technology.


Our conquest must reach for what acclaimed filmmaker Werner Herzog has coined, “ecstatic truth”, an inherent truth realized only by the artist.

*(Reference his later works, also that of P.H.- reflect on past conversation with PH.-how astonishment affects magician? Rediscover. theres something there, don’t know yet.)

And maybe then, we can renounce our positions next to the kings and queens. Until then only ignorance remains and the repetitive rhythms of a dying culture.

*(do not forget antonin a.)

“We must believe in a sense of life renewed by the theater, a sense of life in which man fearlessly makes himself master of what does not exist, and bring it into being. And everything that has not been born can still be brought to life if we are not satisfied to remain mere recording organisms” – antonin a.



I am Bunny Boy

[dananddave]

This is interesting, Bunny Boy.

[Jacob Netzel]

I think that everyone here is all on the same page but I don't think that any one here is right I think everyone is. The idea to put magic back on stage is the best thing I have heard sense " Tornado of Fire" with David Copperfield. With all of technical advances we have made bringing magic back to its roots is the key to making people look at magic the way they use too. I love magic but I have never really felt turned on about it like I was when I saw masters of the craft perform. See a performance on TV from the Magic Castle was something I would look forward to for months.
I think that the respect will follow if we take magic to the place where it use to be. Not only that but remember that the view of magic will change if we start to change. Like what as said earlier that we see ourselves as Artist of magic. One thing i heard said on this site many times was be yourself not become this performer. Most people that perform are already out going and easy to talk to or easy to connect with. This makes getting people to appreciate what we do more because they feel like they really got to know you.
I think exposure is never going to go away until that respect factor grows stronger. I think it will always be there and I think that everyone I mean 100% of people want to know " how did you do that" and that is just, to me one of the joys of performing. So lets take magic to its roots and change the way people look at this Craft and see the joy and excitement we all see in it.

[Snorri]

Very interesting discussion.

"You cannot solve problems with the same thinking that created them."

Respect to the art is in a way honoring those that came before you by performing ot the best of your ability. Practice until you can live the trick you perform.

I think several people here have hit the nail on the head. It has been my experience that people get into flash for cash type of mentality when they start out or they copy what they have seen on TV.
To make magic your own....to put a little piece of yourself into the magic you do even when you perform another person's effect comes accross quite differently than just being a copy of a copy of a copy of something you are not.
Respect the art by practicing what you want to add and then respect will be earned when you perform because of how it is presented.
As Wayne has said Respect is always earned.

Know from whence you came and know where you want to go.

About exposure:
How does exposure really hurt our art? How many laymen say they know this trick or that when you perform?
If that is happening to you then I would say, change what your doing man, turn the trick inside out and really learn it to change it. Do something else for these people that they have not been exposed to and astonish them.

Perhaps one of the best exposure things around is Penn and Tellers Cups and Balls. Does it matter that they exposed it? No, I still perform it and still get astonishment out of the effect. It only appears to some that it is a big deal because there are some that don't get 'it'.
Later,
Snorri

[sky_lark]

Now that Snorri brought up exposure, I want to bring up a funny thing. If you see a magic show, and you go home, and are going nuts about those trick and want to be a magician... you can just get onto the internet and within a few days you could be performing.

And you paid no money at all. Videos, websites-done.

This seems wrong to me. You shouldn't be able to get on the computer for a couple of minutes, pull out your poker deck, and do an ambitious card.

Anybody else with me?

[Ben Long]

One must ask him- or herself: How can I make what I do as or more beautiful than a painting or a symphony or a poem? Magic certainly has the potential to make a much bigger impression than any of the above. A song or a play or a sculpture can certainly cause emotion, but nothing like what magic does.

Magic strips a person down to nothingness. There is nothing a spectator can do or honestly say when he or she is hit by a powerful illusion. They may cry or laugh or scream, they may not. What we do can drive a person mad. They may suddenly feel helpless.

The problem that exists is that many people don't put the time or effort into an effect that it truly deserves. When the illusion is perfect, there is nothing a spectator can do. Hecklers will wilt. Magic is becoming too open to the outside. It needs to remain something arcane. One of the best ways to do this is to stop posting media of any kind of all illusions. Magic needs to be seen live. When somebody is only in front of a camera, they are careless and don't give the illusion the respect it deserves. In front of real people, the effect must be perfect. Nobody is amazed by a video. People are amazed by other people.

Here's what to do. Stop reading this (this being my moment of post-modernity). Stand up. Don't go to your fridge. Don't do your homework. Don't touch the phone, the television. Get a deck of cards. Go outside. Find somebody.

Make their day...

[waynehouchin]

Get a deck of cards. Go outside. Find somebody.

Make their day...

Well said! And with that - this months topic must come to an end. Great job! I'm still out in Vegas with Dana, Kenner & Bayme - when I get back home I'll post next months topic. Great work & I'll talk to you guys soon.